Handcrafted Items should be Transmutable

Meirril wrote:

Meirril I am glad you brought this up.
Let us use your example but look at it in another way. You stated to convert 1 void powder into 7 Underfoot fragments would cost 37gp (well you got the 30gp from my example, but that doesn't matter)
So basically you spent 5gp 28sp per fragment, but the current market price on the broker for an Underfoot Fragment is between 30gp and 40gp. So why would any one ever buy the Underfoot Fragments on the broker when you could just buy a void powder and convert it to 7 Underfoot Fragments.
I'll try and give a couple reasons, some one can not do that convertion, so they buy the components to have an adorner make the item for them. They don't care about paying essentially 7 times more for a Fragment than if you down converted a Void Powder. That is something I will never do, but it comes back to one of my major points: Its all about more choices.
So this is something I currently do with the voids that I transmute (I don't buy or sell them since I have 4 90+ that I want to be fully adorned).
My point here is again I feel because the supply of fragments is so low since giving another option will help that supply so the prices reflect the other 3 components. If Void Powders cost around 30gp to 75gp then Underfoot fragments should cost around 3gp to 7gp 50sp, but it is currently around 30gp to 40gp because the supply is so low. Why do you guys who are against my idea want to pay more? If this would bring down the prices of fragments (I have shown factual evidence that it will not change the void market) why is that a bad idea? When has anyone ever say 'I want to pay more for stuff!'
Meirril has told me not to ignore the down convert recipe, in fact Meirril has just shown a great way to make money (2pp 43gp profit from a 37gp investment) I have a friend who buys all Void Powders under 50gp down converts them all to Fragments to sell. Is this why people are against my idea because they would lose this market? If that is the reason I can understand that. But if my idea will bring the price down, I say why pay more?

Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:

My comments in Red

ReddyKY wrote:

Ok Reddy I will bite, comments in Red

mentor down to level 5 , go to a newbie zone (TD is my favourite) , mass slaughter , loot , transmute..

Doesn't take long to get out of Tier 1-3 this way.

I get most of my fragments from converting powder > frag
I tend to get far more powders than fragments and it is a space-saver in a way. I just break down a few powders when I am running short on fragments to make my adornments.
You can get transmuting from 5-400 in a day, just mentoring and hitting starter zones.
Adorning is even faster!
Besides, transmuting is not a true tradeskill. Its something anyone can do and they never even have to be an aritsan! So no, the idea of making handcrafted transmutable is not something I ever want to see. As a tradeskiller, you ALREADY have an advantage over non-crafters! You can craft mastercrafted items to transmute, where a non-crafter has to rely only on what they loot!
Seriously, who is going to turn fragments into mana? Thats what infusions are for!

Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:

I guess I should add this point in. I have 4 max level adorners, I have a 48 wizard who is a 90 sage at 250 skill transmuter. I have a couple other characters in the mid to high 20's with about 50 transmuting skill. I have serveral more characters with only 5 transmuting skill.
Though I appreciate people trying to help me out to level up my transmuting I have heard most of these allready. In fact TD and Halas are the two spots I start out at. It is great that people are saying all these different ways to get transmuting up. My idea just gives one more way, why is getting more choice a bad idea? Can any one explain this to me?
Even with my idea I still think mass slaughter would still be the best way, but if you get bored of that and just need to get a couple points more, don't know where to get transmuting skill items, then why not be able to craft a couple HC items to get those last few points? I don't see how this is a bad thing. Please some one explain it to me other than that is changes the mechanics. Mechanics change all the time this is nothing new.
So Wull, before you posted that with my idea the market would be flooded with manas and I replied to post showing you that would not be the case because you would lose a lot of plat doing that. Several people on here have agreed with me on that point that nobody converts fragments to manas. You didn't reply to what I said, so should I assume that this is no longer a concern about my idea, since you have said no further comments about it?

Zivgar wrote:

So it was as I suspected then. The complaint about t1 transumting was just a ruse to cover the real intent and that was to make it easier for you get stuff. Thanks for at least being honest about it.
P.S. Transmuting is an item sink. It effectively removes coin from the game by keeping items from being vendored. As such, even if I were for your scheme, the cost of creating a item that supplants for a treasured item of that tier would, at a minimum, have to be as expensive as the vendor value of an adept spell; in your proposal it is not.

Zivgar wrote:

Let me reiterate. As a crafter, you already have an advantage! You can whip out a few mastercrafted items to transmute for skill-ups or a few more materials! I don't think you're understanding that ANYONE can transmute. So those that don't craft and transmute HAVE TO 'farm' drops for transmuting. Just looking at that perspective, it would be an unfair advantage over adventurer-only transmuters who don't craft. As I see it, if you're an adventurer and crafter, you have the best of both!

Kuulei wrote:

With my idea a crafter would only be able to get fragments, I am not 100% positive on this but transmuting MC items only give you powders. I am not sure of the current prices of T9 rares, but I would bet around 1pp for the cheapest? If you only get powders from it why would you spend 1pp+ to get an item that costs 30gp to 75gp? How is that an advantage? Please tell me? So since you only get powders from MC items why would a crafter do this? I just don't see the adavantage to that point you make for a crafter making MC gear to get powders over just buying it.
So let us state the following if my idea was put into the game who would have the adavantage in what adorning material market:
Fragments: The crafter would here since you could make them for around 7gp 80sp, plus you wouldn't have to go out and farm the items since you can get them from a GH harvest depot with harvesters. ( You are correct when you say that is an advantage I agree with you. But fragments are 'The 'lowest' component, used as a secondary component in all adornment recipes.' (A quote taken from http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Transmuting)
Powders: I feel the advantage here is to the adventurer. (This is an opinion, you may disagree but I would like to read your reasons) You are correct that a crafter could get a rare, make MC items and transmute it into a fragment. At a cost of 7gp 80sp (assuming it uses 5 T9 fuels) But how would you get that rare? Either farm it yourself (Same as an adventurer) Or buy it from the broker. The cheapest T9 rare was a Toxnettle root for 78gp, cheapest void powder was 33gp. So there is no advantage here, the crafter and the adventurer would have to farm an item (either harvest a rare, or get a loot drop). Ok I have to add this in as I just saw it expert CA/spells according to wiki (the link that I shared) when transmuted will give a powder and an uncommon chance of an infusion. Currently on the broker from the AB server kaborite clusters and ulteran diamonds are selling for 4pp 20gp. An infusion of the void is selling 4pp 23gp. Since we are all transmuters here, I would assume we all know that the chance to get the higher items is at best 50%? So again I don't see the advantage here for the crafter. I would just buy the infusion from the broker instead of taking a 50/50 chance at best to get an infusion for an item that costs the same.
Why I think the adavantage goes to the adventurer is first off the loot drop is free, secondly with the amount of legendary items that drop you have a good chance at getting an infusion or the powder. I disadvantage would be that you have to group to get these items ( Though people solo, PR, VP, SoH, TSO zones, heck even one guys sent me a message saying which zones he likes to solo to farm legendary gear So with mercs you really don't even need a group.
But for agruement sake lets call it a PUSH.
Infusions: Sage/alchemist/jewelers is the only crafter that can make an item that will created an infusion unless it is a loot drop item. That is 1/3 of the crafters. Rares that make CA's/Spells are the most expensive rares out there, making it not worth just at a chance of an infusion. Clear cut advantage adventurers.
Manas: No crafter can make an item that when transmuted could be a mana unless one of the component is a loot drop. Advantage Adventurers.
Add it all up:
Adventurers (with my idea): 2 (On the highest of the adorning materials); (current system) 2
Crafters: 1 (On the lowest compontent of adorning materials); (current system) 0
PUSH (with my idea): 1 (powders); (current system) 2
In my opinion, with my idea, I see the adavantage to the adventurer, which I believe it should mostly stay. With the crafter being able to have the biggest advantage in only the fragment market.
With the current system, the advanatge is all to the adventurer. I know i put PUSH on 2 of the material tiers, but I am trying to stay neutral, leaning more to what you suggest as the advantage to the crafter basing it on being able to craft MC items. But with mercs and being able to solo, older zones from 90 scaled TSO and SF, it seems it would be so much easier to get loot drops, than farming for rares (plus the pack pony would help here) That is why I am giving it a PUSH and with that the adaventurer in my opinion still has the advantage.
I truely hope you respond to this as I have enjoy these discussions. You attack my ideas and points, but not me, you post your concerns, where I try and give numbers from the in game market to dispute them. Please if anything you don't think is right, I will hope you comment on it, but I feel I have just made a pretty good agruement why I don't think crafters have the advantage at all, even if my idea went into the game.

ReddyKY wrote:

Kuulei wrote:

Sorry Kuulei, I should have adressed what you said better than just who has the better advantage. Comments in Red

This is a very bad idea for the botters out there mentoring down or lvl locking and starting their autokill and loot programs or harvesting programs so they can farm for mute trash out of business. We cannot have that now, we need them driving up prices of the lvl 5 items on the broker that new players at that are lvl 5 cant afford. They may switch to just running their crafting bot accounts all the time rather then just half the time then and really overflood the market with. That would be bad for the crafting market over all.

Zivgar wrote:

The reason the supply of t9 fragments is so low is because of current adventuring content. The only source of treasured transmutable items are adept books that drop from solo mobs. After you grind your way to 92 there is no reason to continue to do solo mobs. Even then, most solo drops are not spell books but vendor fodder or legendary items.
By itemization everything in Velious is legendary or above. This is what causes fragments to have a high value to non-adorners. The non-adorners follow a long time crafting tradition of bringing the crafter all the materials for the combine. If they simply came to the crafter and offered to pay for the components the adorner would break down a power to fragments for each combine because power is the most widely available transmuting product available in T9/10.
So really, adorners are failing to take advantage of people's ignorence. Is that the real message we're getting here? Most t10 customers don't mind paying an extra 2p to get what they want NOW. 6 fragments, 30g or 150g is perty much the same to most adventurers. Seriously, why am I going to blink twice about a 5p price difference for something I want?
Either way the arguments in favor of making handcrafted transmutable fail to take into consideration the real underlying relationships to supply and broker demand. As such, the entire t9/10 argument is perty much null, void and invalid.
Instead you should be looking at t7 and t8 if you really want to make market force arguments of supply of transmutable products. Anyway you want to look at this, I can get a transmuter from 0-425 for about 50p with no farming, which under todays market seems very reasonable.

Oakum wrote:

I'm not sure if you are for my idea or against? Putting bot'ers out of business really doesn't bother me at all, but yes your statement is correct this would put bot'ers that farm gear out of business. Honestly I don't think that is a bad thing. Hurting the cash flow of a bot'er is not my concern. I'm sorry to any bot'ers out there, but I think SoE doesn't care about bot'ers either.
Now you do bring up a great about the bot'ers switching to crafting HC items. First off (and I would like the help of the crafters out there if this is true) There is no market for HC items and what market there would be is for newbie players that have no money, that can only afford HC gear. Of course if Bot'ers are flooding the market with HC items the prices would drop, making it really not worth while to make these items as a money making plan. With lower prices then these newbie players could actually afford the gear. I find that as a postive.
I read a post on here about WS not getting ammo in T10. They basically said that they have nothing of worth while to make without that ammo recipes. Now there is more tiers, but I can't imagine, especially now you don't get bonus xp for making a first time item, that a lot of people make HC items to try and sell and make money, so I don't see this hurting the crafting market, a market that doesn't really exist (If I am wrong here please correct me). In fact I see this helping by making a market for these items, though if the market get flooded it would be a small profit, but a profit. It just would lead to more choices.
Currently the only market is for comusable items, such as food/drink (Provie), Ammo (WW, WS), and potions/poisons (Alchem). That is just 4 Tradeskill classes that have a constant market. Sure the others have there places, nothing constant like those other 4. My idea would give the other 5 a chance to perhaps have a constant market. I don't see that as bad for the crafting market.
My final point is that a bot'er can not just set up a program and mass 1000's of HC items.
Think on this: Current bags max size is 48; 48 x 6 = 288. So in one sitting you could only make 288 items at best. (Now I don't know if you can still make items and they go into the overflow, if some one knows let us know)
So lets say it take 30 seconds to make these items as a Bot'er, that would take 144 min (2 hours 24 min) to make. So of course the bot'er could wait till that 2.5 hours. Dump all that stuff onto the broker and set it up again, rinse and repeat. They can't set it up over night since they have to set it up every 2.5 hours. Just seems a lot of trouble to not make a lot of money. (Since I am sure more than one bot'er would do this flood the market driving prices down. Plus farming items is free, crafting costs fuel. If you are going to bot to get transmuting items, still seems that farming loot is still the much better option and this is the current system in the game!

Zivgar wrote:

I levelled up Transmuting as I levelled, with the first 50 points via cash a guildie gave me and a detour at about 30 via Chronomancering. This was before I figured out the Yarrow method, or I just would have done that.

As I only needed 5 points per level, it was then mostly eased up as I went with unwanted quest rewards, adepts books and so on.

If you are doing it as a 90, then go farm the Eye of Arad or PR like the rest of us, and make the one plat you need to buy five unwanted Adepts books at circa 20 gold each.

Yes, transmuting does need mats gathered by adventurers, as opposed to using EZ Mode pack ponies, guild miners and the rest of it ... but its also one key press as opposed to the process of making something that "conventional" crafting is.

"If you are a silver member I heard you can't wear MC items" is completely wrong and false and to be ignored. On the other hand, as a silver person you are locked out of the broker without guildies or spending excessive amounts of real cash (*), and that means genuine lowbies without high level alts cant afford to buy MC items that compete for rares with pretty furniture and twinkishness for alts that bored endgame players buy.

Finally, Tolly buys 90% of his adornment mats straight off the broker. With most of levelling adorning done via dailies, and then by making money once I got the skill to 275, I could easily deal with not having levelled transmuting at all. He frequently vendored legendary items, because that earned more than transmuting them would.

But then Tolly isnt, fundamentally, a crafter - hes a salesman. Too many lazy little so and sos call themselves crafters, and think SOE should line up customers for them, and then whine when no-one buys the stuff they sell that is identical to the stuff sold by two zillion other lazy so and sos with 9 crafter alts each.

Find people who can use what you make, convince them they have a need for it, and fill that need.

In summary, it aint broke, dont fix it. Now, go buy a whole lot of yarrow and so on and go level your transmuting with it.


(*) SOE should copy Turbine's greatly superior ftp model in this, and allow ftp people *a* broker slot to sell *one* thing. But generally, SOE should just admit they were wrong and implement Turbine's ftp model wholesale. Stupid pride in stupid model is stupid.

Meirril wrote:

I disagree. There is plenty of Treasured dropping where the Infusions of the Void and Distilled Mana come from, which is Kunark.
Its just the people farming that content arent bothering to pick it up, because they are too busy speed running the content to get to the bosses to farm the Distilled Mana.

Zivgar wrote:

*post deleted due to math error. The fuel is important*

Meirril wrote:

You bring up some good points. Comments in Red

Tollymore wrote:

RoK is 5 xpak ago, well 4 xpak have come out since then and only the lvl 80 teasured gear will give underfoot fragments. In PR most of the gear is lvl 78 or 79, but there is some lvl 80 stuff in there. Really do people do RoK heroic zones to farm infusions and manas? I just thought they did that to Power Level? I still think most of those fragments on the broker comes from down converting powders and since you said that they don't loot those items anyway then that must be true. Which in the end it seems to me to be his point.

Zivgar wrote:

Zivgar,

Where do you think all the cheap Phenomenal Reactant comes from ?