Handcrafted Items should be Transmutable

Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:

You harvested over 1500 rares just to level up transmuting? How long did that take you? I will admit I have never done it that way, so I will have to take your word on it. Does it take you less than a day? When was the last time you did this?
I guess I am confused by your statement you are talking about back in the day when transmuting and adorning was pretty much the same thing? That was what 5 years ago? So you are saying it was viable back when overland zones were filled with heroic mobs that took groups to kill?
I guess we have a different way to view what viable or practical means. Harvesting any where between 500 to 1500 rares does not seem practical to me. If you are a tradeskiller only harvesting nodes to get rares that your class can use until you get 500 to 1500 rares seem like it would take a lot of time. That is not practical to me. So I hope you can explain it to me why that is viable/practical.

Zivgar wrote:

All of my toons transmute.. and all of the DoV+ gear is legendary. I've gotten fragements from those transmutes. The information on the wiki is dated/wrong.

Zivgar wrote:

Probably just like everybody else that is serious about leveling transmuting he just bought the rares off of the broker. Everybody that is serious about transmuting uses the broker. Why? Because you can make money faster using the broker, and you can get what you want faster using the broker. Doing it all yourself just means your avoiding your strengths.
Every crafter can make money selling stuff. It just means paying attention to the market and taking commissions. Adventurers can always broker stuff for more gold than they can make from vendoring everything. Again, pay attention to what people buy on the broker to know what is vendor trash and what is broker gold.
Now use that gold to buy what you need for transmuting.
Implying that the only method to skill up transmuting involves a huge amount of farming on the transmuter's part ignores a core game mechanic. Ok, our free to play segment is left out in the cold but I think this is one of the many contributing factors that pushes them towards a gold subscription. The major point is the people who ask around about skilling up transmuting don't spend their time farming materials to transmute, they use the broker. Presenting farming as the major method of skilling up transmuting is misleading.

All of my 90+ toons transmute and I have yet to get 1 fragment from any legendary items. I only get powders and infusions.
Any one else on have gotten fragments from legendary gear? Mermut and myself seem to have a disagreement

Meirril wrote:

I have 4 max level transmuters. 2 were Max lvl adventure classes and I chose to farm the items. Didn't take that long, was pretty easy since they were raid geared. 1 toon I started at lvl 1 and leveled them to max adventure level while every chance I got I transmuted the items that I got from quests or mobs. My last toon was a combination of both. I was serious about leveling transmuting and I looked into buying those items. In my opinion they are over priced, so I chose to farm instead, but as an adventure class I had 2 choices, farm the items or buy it. Nothing wrong with either choices and I will agree that buying the items will get me what I want faster, but I don't like to buy, that is just the way I am. I was very happy that I had a choice.
Now if I was a crafter would I have had the same choices? Yes I could still buy rares and make something. Well 1 of those 4 toons is a Provisioner. There is nothing I can make to even transmute but in T1 and T2 and those things would just be from a Wood Worker (Some one will have to correct me since I don't believe MC furiture is transmutable) So I would then have to harvest or buy over 1500 lumber rares to reach 375 to be able to transmute lvl 80 gear. If I was an armorer I would have to buy hard metal ore which is some of the more expensive rares on the market. My point is that there is only one way and it involves buying the items needed. As you stated that is a faster way but at the cost of spending money. Nothing worng with that choice. I just want a more practical choice via HC items. This choice would take longer, but at least would be eqivelent to an adventure classes gaining xp while getting items to level up transmuting. This would make the choices the same for both crafters and adventurers as I still say that buying or harvesting over 500 to 1500 rares is not as practical of a choice as being able to farm items (Which will get you all of the adorning materials, whiling making MC items would get you the bottom 3 materials depending on the crafting class you are). One of my major points is to make the playing field between crafters and adventurers the same in terms of leveling up transmuting.
Now I assume you have read most of the posts here and I have never implied that farming is the only way. My point in that post was to stay away from buying items from the vendor because that is another choice, just as farming rares or items is another choice. You are right, I doubt if some one wanted to level transmuting via crafting that they would harvest the amount of rares need to get their skill high enough. They would probabely buy it. The point I was trying to make was how many rares would be needed to do that in the current system and if you did not want to buy them how many you would have to harvest and the time it would take. I wanted to show that claiming MC items was a practical means of leveling up transmuting is not true compared to the same thing that an adventurer has to do. I wanted to prove my point that HC items would be a more feasible means to this end. I think I did that. I never said it was the only way, one of the major points of this was to give more options to level up this skill. I don't care is 'Choice A' is easier or faster, I just want crafters to have a 'Choice B'. In the current system for crafters it is really just buy enough rares to get to the skill level they want.
I just want when some new player that asks what is the best way to level up transmuting if I am just a crafter, and instead of harvest or buy rares to make MC items, some one could say oh you can make HC items, but buying items or rares is the much faster way. At least then they have 2 choices and can pick the best one that fits their play style. That is the one of points of my idea. Never to create a system that HC item would be the best and only way.

EDIT: FYI: we cross posted. My post below does not address your more recent post.
Bah, this quoting within quoting is getting hard to read.... Pulling your quotes out separately:
Zivgar wrote:

Sorry, I'm just not going to agree with you on the desire to make fragments out of nothing. (And I consider common materials, harvested by automated guild harvesters and pack ponies, into the guild depot, to be nothing). It's not the skillups. It's the mass production of top tier fragments out of thin air without leaving the guild hall. We're just going to have to disagree that a) there is a need, and b) it's a good thing.
Zivgar wrote:

Level 10 (up to level 5 really) is problematic because after the gear revamp, the majority of items that drop in those starter zones are level 10. Kill a level 1 mob, get a level 10 item. Killl a level 5 mob, get a level 10 item. This is a little rough on those who can only transmute up to level 5. All you're left with are adepts, and mastercrafted wares. Starting out is broken. After that... It's trivial to go out an get stuff yourself, or you can pay people that do, your choice.
If *you* choose to limit *your* playstyle, and refuse to *either* obtain ingredients yourself, or buy the required ingredients.. well, then it just might limit what *you* can skill up. But that's *your* choice, you're painting yourself into a corner of your choosing.
Also think on the fact if you are a crafter if you can only harvest the rares that your tradeskill class can use.
Incorrect for low level MC. Any TS class can make them.
Zivgar wrote:

I'm guessing, 2000? You only needed to get to 375 (was the practical cap in TSO). And you did the entire thing on T1/T2 rares, which dropped like candy in the starter zones. Silver Clusters and Rough Lapis Lazuil. Probably about an even split, half from DLW or OMF, and half scooped off the broker when the asking price dipped into the silver. But the mechanics were different, you had to *make* an adornment to get a skillup above 100, which took more than one component. So yah, you probably had to burn through 2000+... If you find any of the old transmuting guides, you'll find this method specifically documented, and recomended, back then.
And remember, I specifically never said it was fun.... Fortunatly, it's all so much easier now.
But at best, you're arguing to take the remaining effort out of it. At worst, you're arguing for the ability to mass produce fragments, which people will crank out for plat.
Please understand, not everyone agrees with either of those goals....

Zivgar wrote:

I just want to reiterate this...
You (and the hypothetical they) already have choices in leveling up transmuting. But your hypothetical rules most of them out, leaving only two. That's not the fault of the game, that's the fault of your hypothetical situation.
If a new player says "I want to level up transmuting, but I don't want to be bothered to get the ingredients to do it...", well, that's their tough cheese. They have decided to not do it the way it's intended. The alternatives, are either expensive, or annoying. But only because they've ruled out choices themselves.

Congratulations: I was thinking over your last post while I was in the shower (yes, I need to get a life, why do you ask?), and you have successfully changed my mind. My opinion has been swayed by your arguments.
My original thought was that it's unnecessary, but not objectionable, as long as it's for skillups only.
My current thought is that yes, it's objectionable, even just for skillups.
I was persuaded by your arguments regarding the 'pure crafter', who wants to have choices in skilling up transmuting while staying within his playstyle. It goes something like this:
Q: How do I best skillup transmuting?
A: Best way, raise transmuting as you level your adventuring side, on the gear you find. Takes about 5-15 items per level.

Q: But it is not my playstyle to level a new adventurer, how then?
A: Mentor down to a newbie zone, and collect items to transmute.
Q: You misunderstand, my playstyle is to have no intention of adventuring at all. How do I skillup transmuting without killing anything?
A: Ahh, then you need to buy items from the broker to squish, from those who are adventuring.
Q: But I don't want to spend any money to level up transmuting, that's not my playstyle. How now?
A: Well, go out and make some money specifically to buy items to transmute, harvest shinies, craft, etc... Then put that towards buying transmuting squishables.
Q: But it's not my playstyle to spend any effort to make coint for leveling up transmuting, what do I do now?
A: Well, *you've* limited most of your options, you could always harvest MC rares, make MC items, squish them, and get skillups that way.
Q: But that sounds tedious, and apparently that's not my playstyle either. How now do I get my skillups?
A: I'm sorry... that's the last choice
Q: But, where are my choices? It's unfair that I have no choices, I demand I other choices!
A: *sigh*.... Perhaps leveling transmuting is incompatible with your playstyle.
Wait.. *and* you want free fragments during the process to boot?

Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:

This is perfect.

Impact@Splitpaw wrote:

LOL. Yes it is.
I haven't read the entire thread, but has the "Play your way" card been played yet? That seems to be last fallback for people who want things trivialized.

Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:

I want to reiterate what choices does a pure crafter have? Of course everyone one can buy whatever they need, so that is one option for adventurers and crafters. What are the other choices a crafter has? Well they can make MC items and transmute them. So what am I leaving out? Farming mobs? That is adventuring not a crafting thing.
So you said you have leveled up transmuting via MC items and I asked you about it because it is something I have never done. You didn't answer me so I will posse those questions again.
When do you do this last?
How many rares did you need to reach max level transmuting?
How many rares did you harvest in an hour? A day?
How long did it take to gather those items?
If you bought them how much did it cost roughly?
How long did it take to craft all those items to transmute them?
You said it was a viable way to level up transmuting so I assume that you have done it a couple times.
I gave my reason why I don't think it is a practical way, but that is my opinion. I think HC items would be a lot better than MC items, but you still have to gather the raw materials (or buy them, or join a guild with harvesters), and you have to pay for the fuel to make them. At that you would only get fragments. If some one was doing this to get materials to level up adorning then they would still need get powders. Yes we all the different ways to get them, but my point is that this idea would still not be the best one out there. Just another choice.
So one of my agruments is to create a situation to prove that crafters really don't have a lot of options. You said there is more, but I just don't see it other than the ones that I have stated. I see HC items being pretty useless in this current system of the game. Why not have these items transmutable right now in the game? I don't see how it can hurt anything and I have given reasons to why I feel this to be true. For some of the things that myself and others pointed out an alternate idea was given, which I would have no problem with if it was implemented as a compromise.

Zivgar wrote:

Sometime you have to spend money to make money, if you are so bent on getting your transmuting skill up then you buy the items to do it, make adornments with them and sell them to recoup what part of the costs that you can. In the end you might make a profit. I could go for handcrafted items being able to be transmuted for a *possible* fragment, maybe a 1 in 5 chance but no more.

Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:

Comments in Red

Raknid wrote:

You should read the thread before you post.
I highly doubt you will answer my questions, that is what people who don't have a valid point end up doing.
How would making HC items transmutable trivialize leveling up transmuting?
People have allready posted that they can level up transmuting to max in less than a day and that is with the current system.
So you think this will make that feat even easier? What that it would take only 6 hours? Crafting that many items does take some time. I don't see it being any faster than the current system that is in place. The only things I see is that a crafter now will be able to do it as fast as farming items, but at a cost. That seems like a good system to me.

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

I agree, but an adventurer farming items does not have to spend any money. With my idea a crafter would just have to pay the fuel cost.
You can level up adorning for free via the daily adorning quest.
With my idea a crafter would still need to get powders to make adornments or upconvert 10 fragments to get 1 powder.
An adventurer will get a chance to get all materials, thus making adornments easier to make and at no cost. (other than the cost fo the fuel to make the adornment)
There is nothing wrong with what you said. If you want to level adorning up, buying the items needed is faster and when you get to the higher tiers you will start to make your money back.
Making HC items transmutable really won't make you that much money. Once the market stablizes you will only get 1 or 2 GP at the higher tiers. T1 fragments would make 3 to 4 GP until the supply gets so high it moves back down to more reasonable levels and then people will stop making them as the profit goes down. The other tiers are ghost towns, not a huge market in those levels. The money will still be in farming item drops since farming is free.
So just having HC items give fragments when transmuted would be a new source of fragments. Fragments are the most common adornment material and in terms of quanity the most needed. I think fragments should be readily available.
That is an opinion and one that you don't agree with it seems. Again nothing wrong with that. Further up in the thread some one suggested a simular idea to the one you said about fragments having a lesser chance to drop. I stated that I wasn't totally for that idea, but it was an idea I would be happy with as a compromise.

Zivgar wrote:

Adventurers have expenses too, food, drink, mending, equipment upgrades, totems etc (negligible you say? no more than the costs of fuel)
The adventurer does have to pay, you are just not taking into account the hidden costs, the items that are looted can be sold as vendor trash fro coin. You are not okay with the adventurer getting the best deal, that is the entire premise of this thread, it is risk vs reward.
You are not really thinking this out, handcrafted T9 item cost to make vs the cost of a underfoot fragment, and the effect that a sudden massive influx of virtually no cost fragments would have, it would be detrimental to many more than would gain from it in the long run.
There are plenty of methods that are perfectly viable you are just insisting on this one because like it is effortless and will allow you to buy the handcrafted stuff from the broker.

Zivgar wrote:

I will point out again because your reply got crossed with a reply I was making concurrently the adventurer does pay an implied cost because they lose coin from not selling the items.
So with the bolded statement it sounds as if you realize this would create a complete upset in the balance of the market and you think that it is acceptable?

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

Comments in Red

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

Comments in Red

Zivgar wrote:

This in a way is a good situation for "The end justifies the means", though not exactly how it is normally used as there is nothing really immoral about it. The price of a Lapis Lazuli Fragment is meaningless as there is a free way to get beyond those and little to no use of having them otherwise. They are 4gp because of supply, not so much because of demand.
In any event you keep on referencing adventurers having it easier here, you have a choice and the extra effort (risk) that adventurers put in give the extra reward. pressing 4-5-6 2 times and stopping a combine is no comparison and should not grant any reward for you to level transmuting from common items, and if it does it needs to be a 20%, 33% chance at most to do a fragment.
You keep saying that you are willing to compromise, how much?
My statement about not selling the items being a hidden cost is no more wrong than yours, and the logic is not flawed. You take the cost that you could outright vendor all the items for plus the fuel cost to make an adornment, or if you sell the frags/powders etc to a PLAYER because you cannot sell them to a vendor. You must first have a buyer and you said yourself the middle tiers are ghost towns for this, there just isn't enough demand.