Handcrafted Items should be Transmutable

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Zivgar, May 3, 2012.

  1. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    I have been thinking about this for a while now and I think what items that can be transmuted needs to be changed.
    I don't understand why handcrafted items can't be transmuted. Is it really that big of a deal to have these items transmutable? For handcrafted items I would suggest that you can only get fragments from them. If you changed this then it would be much easier to raise your skill from 5 to 25 which I find is one of the more annoying lvl range to increase. Just the other day I was killing a bunch of newbie area mobs just to get items to transmute and it took forever not mention taking away mobs from the actually newbies.

    The problem is that when items dropped it was lvl 10 items and I couldn't transmute them yet. I had to keep farming until I got adapt books. I don't want to buy these items and I have 8 90+ tradeskillers, why can't I make handcrafted in order to get transmuting up? As it stands handcrafted is rarely used, at least what I see.

    Now if people are worried about making tons of hand crafted to get mana's well think about this . . .

    For rounding sake lets say it take 1 minute to make an item, actually lets go in the other direction and say it takes 30 seconds.
    10 fragments to make a void = 5 minutes

    10 voids to make an infusion = 50 minutes

    10 infusions to make a mana = 500 minutes ~ 8 hours 20 minutes

    So it takes roughly 8 to 9 hours to make 1 mana if you wanted to make handcrafted items.

    I couldn't imgaine anyone wanting to do that, but what it would help with is early transmuting skill ups and help crafters by making a market for handcrafted items (ok it really wouldn't help that much because the cost to make the item would not be worth the selling price). Plus when I was leveling up my transmuting I would go to Stormhold and kill the whole zone and this takes away from people who want to level up in these zones. Its not a big deal, but some one going into a zone with raid gear killing all names kinda sucks for the people at that actually level range. Would making handcrafted items fix this? Probabely not, but it would give another option which I think more choices always makes a game better.

    A 2nd agruement against this would be that it would kill the market prices for these adorning materials. Of course it would lower the price, but I feel only on the fragment market, nothing on the void market, nothing on the infusion and mana market. I have proof taken straight from the game. (These prices are based from AB server one of the most populated). For this purpose I will take the highest tier since that is where it would really change the price market.

    Underfoot Fragements cheapest on AB ~ 38gp

    Making a handcrafted item T9: Fuel costs 1gp 56sp x5 = 7gp 80sp cost to make 1 fragment (Save ~30gp)

    (This would lower the cost of fragments if some one wanted to make these. Again to make 1000 would roughly take 8 hours without potions)

    As someone who makes there own adornments I always run out of fragments and I never have enough. I rarely get adept books to mute them, there is no long teasured items that drop in that tier unless I want to farm SF. What I do is convert my voids into fragments. As of right now if this came into the game, I would still convert my voids into fragments and not make HC items to mute into fragments that seems silly to me. But my point is if someone wanted to do that now they can. I am all about choices.

    Void Powder cheapest on AB ~ 44gp

    Making HC item T9: 7gp 80sp x 10 = 78gp to make 10 fragments to convert to 1 Void Powder. ( Lose ~38gp )

    Allready we see that it would cost roughly 34 more gp to make 1 void powder than it is allready in the game. Well I just don't see a lot of people spending the time to make these items just to sell. There is no profit in it. If you are some one who thinks this would drop the market then the profit margin would get even worse making less sense then to do this as a money maker.

    Infusion of the Void cheapest on AB ~ 3pp

    Making HC item T9 = 78gp x 10 = 7pp 80gp to convert to 1 Infusion of the Void ( Lose 4pp 80gp )

    Distilled Mana cheapest on AB ~ 24pp
    Making HC item T9 = 7pp 80gp x 10 = 78pp to convert to 1 Distilled Mana ( Lose 54pp )

    As you can see from the examples above this would only lower the market price on fragements which is way out of line because the supply is so low. This will help the supply, but I still feel players will mostly get the fragments from converting voids. Transmute one legendary item get a void then get 7 fragments or craft 7 items to get the same result. All this does is just give us players more choices.

    So what do other people think about this? I would really like to see this put into the game. I welcome all feedback for or against as long as you explain your points.

    I just wanted to add this part as I was re-reading my post I want to clearly define my intent: I added this part on 5/4

    1) Give players another option to level up transmuting ( I feel the biggest benefit will be low level transmuting)
    2) Balance the fragment market. You need 6 fragments to make each adornment tier (lesser, greater, superior). I feel these are the common item in the adornment materials, these should have the largest supply and be the cheapest component. As it stand it is almost the same price of voids and sometimes cost more. Is my idea the solution? I would say no, but I do feel that it can help. Some people think this idea would flood the market, so if they are right then it would lower the price. But what would the price be? I would say at least around 7gp 80sp (cost of T8 fuel x5) But the cost of a fragment if you down converted from a 30gp Void Powder would be 5gp 28sp that is cheaper than a HC item transmuted into a fragment, so my idea would still not be the best option, just another choice. The best option would be one that is allready in the game.
    3)Give crafters the ability to have a viable means to level up transmuting and enter the fragment market. Adorning is crafting, so why is it only adventurers can get these items to make the components? All I am proposing is to give something back to crafters. Allow them equal oppertunity to gain these adorning materials just as an adventurer can.
  2. ARCHIVED-ReddyKY Guest

    Flag all tier 1 recipes as mastercrafterd. There. Problem solved.
  3. ARCHIVED-Mermut Guest

    Havest a few rares and make MC gear to transmute. Low level rares are pretty cheap if you don't want to harvest.
  4. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    Mermut wrote:
    Valid point I could do that, but why not just have it any handcrafted gear shouldn't be too hard to switch that. Obviously I don't mean items that you can make more than 1 of per craft such as ammo. But that is a choice, I just want more. I have a harvest box full of T1 common, I see no reason that I can't make a couple items to help me gains those last few points. Or if I have crafted gear that is attuned to be able to transmute it instead of vendor fonder. I just want the option.
  5. ARCHIVED-ReddyKY Guest

    Zivgar wrote:
    Zivgar wrote:
    Why then the big long exposition on anything other than tier 1? You are suggesting broad changes to rectify what you acknowledge is a very limited problem.
    I offered a solution that would require a small tweak and make things easier.
    Mermut offered a "solution" that actually already exists for your problem.
    You say you have 90 crafters...spend a few plat and buy enough low level rares to make Mastercrafted items that you can mute. It isn't that expenisive...and it does not take any longer to make than the handcrafted you propose.
    Yet, you have jumped on neither of these as solution to your problem? Why the hesitancy to embrace either? Are you so cash poor that you cant swing a few plat, or do you have some hidden agenda.
  6. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    Ok Red I will post my reason to why I don't like your idea and that the crafting community wouldn't either.
    So you suggest to make all T1 items with the Mastercrafted Tag even though the same item for the same slot would have greater and lesser stats. Now that is your idea, how I understand it. You said that would be a small fix, so why not do the same thing but leave the T1 HC with the same tag of Handcrafted. It would then be the same small fix that you stated. This of course is my idea, but mine would effect all Tiers. This is where we disagree, nothing wrong with that.
    Now again you say this is a small fix, but I have done some coding in my day and if you spent the time to create that code then it should be fairly easy to make that change to all the same items in different tiers. Am I wrong here? I would guess that we do not code for SoE (I know I don't), so we really have no clue to how hard this change would be, but it seems simple to me just flag all HC that only makes 1 per combine to be able to be transmuted.
    So you state that my idea would be a broad change, and your idea would be a small fix (though our ideas are very simular you just want to keep it for T1). Seems to me that a small fix in one Tier would be a small fix in all Tiers. Do you disagree with my statement?
    So I am curious to why this idea is so bad to you that you have to resort to insulting me? Saying I have a hidden agenda? Saying that I am poor in game? Find flaws in my logic, agrue with the concepts of my ideas, give counter points. If you want to agrue just for the sake of agrueing then that is fine, but did not try and tear me down to strengthen your points. I have not done that to you, nor will I do that to anyone. I will look at what you said and if I disagree I will counter your points, as you should do with me (which you have done)
    All I want is the choice to either farm items, buy the items or rares, or to use the common harvests just sitting in my Guild Harvest Box to make a couple items to increase my Transmuting skill.
    All I see here is a chance to make this game better by giving us crafters more options, to perhaps put a slight value back into handcrafted gear. If you don't want to do it than pick one of the other 3 choices I stated above. I guess I don't see why this is such a horrible idea for such a small fix. With Skyshrine giving out gear with 2 white adorns slots making more ways to get adornment materials just doesn't seem that bad of an idea.
    So please give me reasons why this is a bad idea, why this my ruin some part of the game, but I also agree that not having this idea won't break the game, I just see it as a way to make it better. Agree with me state your reasons why, disagree with I also want you to state your reasons why and let us have a good debate.
  7. ARCHIVED-Tollymore Guest

    Zivgar wrote:
    Yes, I do.

    Its an utterly huge change, and will result in the only way anyone ever levels transmuting is with someone levelling a tradeskiller next to them.

    Go buy the low level rares, or chronomentor down to 5 and run a new starter zone.
  8. ARCHIVED-kdmorse Guest

    Making the first 5 levels of transmuting more resonable for new transmuters (<level 10): A good thing, a minor thing.
    Giving people the ability to crank out top tier transmuting components for free: *Not* a minor thing...
    Suddenly you're sanctioning mass producing of transmuting components, including new ones (such as when T10 transmuting is launched) without leaving the guild hall...
  9. ARCHIVED-Deveryn Guest

    Run through Timorous Deep questing and you'll find plenty of low level goodies to transmute.
  10. ARCHIVED-Lodrelhai Guest

    I'll agree to the specific point of making the first tier of transmuting easier - it can be difficult to get enough transmutable items to level out of that zone.
    But there are already solutions to that, as well. T1 rares are not that rare at all. Both factions have 2 cities with newbie areas to quest and grind for transmuteables. And if a lvl 90 crafter is starting to transmute (since the OP mentions having several), there are quest rewards with +25 to transmuting skill, which automatically put them above the difficulty factor the OP originally states.
    So the stated issue is not really an issue, and the proposed solution affects far more than the original stated issue. I have to agree with those who say the proposed solution is neither necessary nor helpful.
    And Zivgar, while you may not agree with Red's ideas, he is as much a part of the crafting community as you are. No one here speaks for the entire crafting community, we just state our view as part of it. And so far the segment of the crafting community interested enough to reply is not in line with your statement of what we would and wouldn't like. That may change as time goes by, but I suggest not making statements on behalf of all of us.
  11. ARCHIVED-dankaro Guest

    before all items had to be made to pristine I used to make t1 items to the first bar and mute them for skill ups. Now for me it was no longer worth it when i had to craft the item to completetion although with a potion of progress and TS aa's now it might be. Look there are 2 ways to level transmuting slow and cheap or fast and expensive if you don't want to spend the coin for items to mute from the broker you need to take the time. harvester toon with bountiful harvest gear and aa's pop a pot of bountiful harvests and you should be able to pull 30-40 t1 rares an hour.Another hour to make 40 items and mute them and you'll get prolly 20 skill ups. The good news is you only need to do this once it isn't worth the effort to do on every toon just so you can mute their no trade items especially since adornments outside of t9 are not needed. BTW expert spells mute as legendary gear ie infusions and powders especially useful for t1 as each adornment returns a powder allowing you to get 2 combines.
  12. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    Tollymore wrote:
    Tollymore I have seen you on AB selling weapons and I think it is great how you go about doing it. If you could answer me the best way to level up tradeskilling? I think all crafters would agree that it is via Rush Orders. The TS xp that you gain is huge, way more than just making single crafting items. I am pretty sure that people will still level up using rush orders over what you suggested. But you do have a very good point, but why is the only way to level up transmuting by farming the items or buying the items that other people have farmed? Why not make it that a crafter can level up transmuting? Why is that so bad? Again with HC items I only want fragments to come from them, nothing higher. No voids, no infusions, just fragments.

    Now why do people level up transmuting skill? I see two reason. The first so they can transmute items, so they can make adornments (Level up adorning). 2nd transmute items so they can sell them (or sell the adorns), and I bet a little bit of both. Now the crafter has a chance to do that and the market will dictate the prices, but I can't stress this point enough, HC items would only be transmuted into fragments of that tier. So crafters would only be able to get fragments.
    It takes 1 mana, 2 infusions, 3 voids, and 6 fragments to make 1 superior adorn, a crafter would have to make 1236 items to make one superior adorn. If someone wanted to do that, they pay money to play this game then why not? Greater adorn 1 infusion, 2 voids, and 6 fragments that is 126 crafted items. Lesser adorn 1 void 6 fragments 16 crafted items. Why does a crafter have to rely on adventurers to get adornment materials?
    If you are a silver member I heard you can't wear MC items, now when they get an upgrade of a HC piece they can transmute it instead of making it vendor fodder. I don't see how this is a bad thing. I don't see if a paying player wants to level transmuting and a tradeskill together is a bad thing. I will still level my last tradeskiller via Rush Orders and I will level that players transmuting via loot drops and crafting items, but at least with my idea that player has more choices, then just farming items or buying them on the broker. That is my point more options this will never stop maing Rush Orders the best way to level up a Tradeskiller.
  13. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:
    My comments in Red
  14. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    Lodrelhai wrote:
    Lodrelhai you are right, I do not speak for the crafting community nor should I say that I do nor say what they would think.
    With that said what do you think of Red's idea of making all HC items tagged as MC in order to transmute them? I said that I agree with his idea, but instead of changing the Tag to say MC keep it as HC and make it transmutable in the end it would just be my idea. Where Red and I differ is he wants to stop it at Tier 1, I want it for all the Tiers. In fact I would be more than happy to do his idea. That would be one step closer to what I am striving for here.
    You bring up a great point with the crafting items. Sadly I only know of one which is the unicorn mount. I could farm tokens again it is a great mount. But I am writing this post giving out this idea as another option to raising the transmuting skill. As I made this suggestion in the crafting channel I looked more into it and saw how much out of whack the prices of fragments are. 40gp for a fragment 30gp to 50gp for a void when you can convert it into 7 fragments (roughly 4gp to 7gp per fragment) It would cost 7gp and 80sp to make 1 crafted item to transmute, so still it would be cheaper to just buy a void and convert it. So introducing this really wouldn't change much.
    Again you are right when you say is this necessary, nope people have given many was to get up the transmuting skill. Is it helpful? I think it is bring the cost down of fragment by increasing the supply seems like a helpful thing to me. Being able to make a couple of items to try and get a couple more points in transmuting so I can mute that lvl 30 item, seem kinda helpful to me. Is there other ways to do it? Of course! Would it cost more than the fuel for the HC item? most likely.
    I guess I look at it as did changing crafting a new item give more xp and increasing Rush Order Xp necessary? Nope, but it did help some classes. Did giving potions necessary to help speed up crafting? Nope, but it was nice to get. Is this idea gonna break the game? I don't think so, but I do think it will help some people level adorning, sell some HC and level transmuting. I think that is a good thing.
  15. ARCHIVED-wullailhuit Guest

    IF you made handcrafted transmutable...the bot running community would script the whole process of crafting , transmuting and re-combining and the broker would be flooded with manas.

    All those hours don't count as a deterent when you don't need to actually be at the PC to do it.
  16. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    Wullailduo@Splitpaw wrote:
    That is a terriffic point Wullailduo, something that should be thought of if this idea was to be implemented.
    Again I will refer to you my point about prices which I took the time to look up. These are actually prices on the AB server. Prices that I did not make up.
    With any market prices change but it is safe to say that the current price of distilled manas is roughly 20pp to 40pp. Would you disagree with that?
    I have posted the cost to make 1 lvl 80 item. 1gp 56sp for 1 piece of fuel. 1 HC items takes 5 fuel to make.
    1gp 56sp x 5 = 7gp 80sp
    To make 1 mana you need 1000 fragments
    7gp 80sp x 1000 = 78pp
    That is more than 2x the cost of just buying the mana that is currently on the broker. If you did a bot'ing program for 24 hours you would get 3 manas at the cost of 234pp.
    If you take the average cost of a Distilled Mana of 30pp you could buy 7 Distilled Manas from the broker.
    Currently the largest bags in the game is 48 slots? (not 100% on this) 48 x 6 = 288 items (Again I do not know if these items would just go into overflow or you wouldn't be able to craft anymore) I am not taking into account how many slot is taken up by the fuel in your bag (I do not think you can place fuel in a supply depot) Remember you need 1000 items just to make just 1 Mana.
    Once you get the items you would then have to have a bot program to transmute all of those HC items. I have no clue if such a program exisit, but I wouldn't be surprised so I will give you the benefit of doubt. So you set this program up again and repeat this process until you get 1000 fragments.
    Now I will admit I have no clue again bot programs, so I am guessing here, but I would assume you would then have to set it up to convert the fragments to voids, voids to infusions, and then infusions to manas. If there is a bot program that would do all that, they player would still lose anywhere from 38pp to 58pp, by doing this process. I guess I don't see the point. To flood the market with Manas so the prices drop so you lose even more money in the process? Why would some one do this? Just buy the mana from the broker.
    You are correct the time would not be a deterent to a bot program, but the money cost would be. So I have to disagree with you on your point.
    You may not agree with my idea, but you can not say that people would flood the market with manas when they are losing over 35pp per mana and with those loses increasing as the supply increases.
    Now what you suggest could allready happen. Why not buy all the void powders on the broker that average 30gp to 75gp if you get 1000 voids for 75gp it would cost 75pp to make which is still less than doing it via crafting (@ 78pp) People could do that now, so what is stopping them? They wouldn't make any money. Same thing would still apply, so I don't see that happening via HC items if it is not happening now.
  17. ARCHIVED-Zivgar Guest

    You also have to think about the raw harvests, they are not umlimited. You either have to harvest them yourself or use a pack pony or the harvest guys in your GH.
    A harvest depot holds 20,000 items.
    Now a Titanium Tower shield needs 4 titanium ore to make, that would make 5000 shield, thus converting into 5 manas.
    Now I am not going to look it up to find it, but lets say an items only needs 1 of each raw material. That would convert into 20 manas, but completely deplete the harvest depot. I don't know about you but it takes a lot to fill it up.
    But to what end? To flood the market with manas so you would lose over 50pp. That agruement just doesn't make sense to me.

    I am glad people are taking the time to question my idea, people should. But I hope you are listening to my agreements and see the logic that I am putting forth.
    People are worried that this may flood the market. (A valid concern) But I have shown through prices I have looked up in game that it just wouldn't be worth it. You would lose too much plat in the process. The only market this could change would be the fragment market. When I checked yesterday (5/3) Underfoot fragments cost 40gp, while Void Powders cost 30gp. (of course with any active market these will change)
    The only reason for this is the supply is so low that the price sky rockets. My idea will just give another way to get some fragments into the world. My point here is about giving more options to the player if you want to buy void powders and convert them down that is one choice, tranmute gear and then convert them down is yet another other choice. My idea will help the crafter (or give another choice) to get some fragments.
    Which brings me to another valid point a poster brough up, is this necessary? Of course not. I don't want people to think that I believe this is the most important idea in the history of EQ2, not even close. But there has been many ideas added into this game that was not necessary, but helpful or fun additions. Adding horses to get around older zones not necessary, but helpful. Beastlords not necessary, but I think people are having fun with them (ok this topic I am sure has a large range of views) Plus Beastlords were something SoE said they would never put in.
    I think my idea would be helpful to crafters more than anyone. I heard a lot of people like to have, for example, a lvl 30 adventure as a lvl 40 tradeskiller, so that adventure could use the gear they make as they level. Now you could craft some gear or transmute the HC gear you have when you replace it to help level your adorner and put adornments in your new gear. I don't see how that is a bad thing? How does that hurt the game? That seems very helpful to me.
    Tollymore brought up a good point about people will only level transmuting as they level their tradeskiller. I agreed with him only to the point where that would just be an additional option to do those things. My idea will never change the fact that the fast way to level up your tradeskiller is through Rush Orders or a Tradeskill Instance. I can't speak for the crafting community, but I think most people will agree with me that if you want to level a tradeskill up fast do Rush Orders.
    This wasn't the fact though before when you would get bonus xp for making a first time item. As my sage, jeweler, or alchemist often times I would just make first time combines on all the abilities upgrades and level that way. Was this change necessary? Nope. Did it help WW, Provies and other classes with less items to make? I would say yes.
    My point here is that making HC items transmutable will give another option to help level up transmuting (As people have stated here there are many other choices), maybe bring a little balance to the fragment market, and will help crafters be a part of that adorning material/adornment market without having to be an adventurer or buy these items from the broker. To me I think that is a good thing and that is why I am spending my time to debate this and hopefully get this added into the game. It may never happen, but I just wanted to get this idea out there, as ever since I started to play this game again I never understood why a teasured item from some skeleton drop can be transmuted, but my HC item could not.
  18. ARCHIVED-ReddyKY Guest

    I am just glad the devs have enough sense not to do this...I could go on and on about item/plat sinks, vendor value, fuels costs, etc... but why bother.
    Your idea, outside of tier 1, is a very poor one, and no amount of justification is going to change that.
  19. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    Zivgar wrote:
    Hmm...so by this logic...
    Breaking down 1 void powder to 7 fragments costs 1 areated water and...5 fuel?
    So 7g fuel + 30g void powder = 37g costs for 40g fragment x 7 = 280g - 37g materials cost = 243g profit from 1 combine.
    Stop ignoring the down convert recipe please.
  20. ARCHIVED-kdmorse Guest

    In my mind, it's flawed to base the impact of the idea on T9 components, a tier we've been stuck for eons, and economy that's long since stabilized at a commodity level.
    One needs to consider the costs and economy present in future tiers as well. For example, when T9 launched, fragments hovered at 1-3p for a very, very long time (until supply finally outstripped demand). They required that someone actually go out and do something (kill a mob, harvest a rare, etc...) - which took people time to do in sufficient quantities to bring prices down.
    Now, when(/if) T10 transmuting ever gets here, we need to consider the impact of an immediate and trivial source of highly valued materials, and in my mind, it's a seriously negative impact. (Others may disagree).
    Being able to sit there and crank out new fragments (mana's don't worry me as much, for exactly the same reason the ability to upconvert fragments to mana's now doesn't worry me, it's not worth the effort) will be an enormously profitable process. It harms the economy for those actually doing things 'properly', by undercutting the value of their goods. It disproportionally rewards botting, or just sitting there churning out fragments willy nilly for hours at an crack, at a profit of (at launch) potentially several plat per combine.
    As has been said by many, if the intent is to fix low level transmuting, fix low level transmuting. Using low level transmuting as an argument to institute a mechanics change that will allow people to afk grind out plat in guild halls seems, overly broad...