Half the man I used to be ... (maybe a quarter of the elf actually)

LOL Sabin...not 2 or 3 CAs per fight, but more like casting for 5 seconds, auto-swinging for 20...that's about normal for me, solo, OR group, in order to be able to continuously engage, without rests for power (and hopefully, not for HP, either, but it more and more rarely works out that way...when I hit 45, I guess I'm GONNA have to go looking for that "BAW")

Gurg already answered half of this in his post above. Gurg your a champion man, i was going to mention that he cut his parse short by more then half but you picked that up.
What you arent understanding Pin is that in a dual weild sense, Berserkers are balanced, its 2 hand weapons that make them grously overpowered because of CA proc ratio is way too high for 2 hand weapons. There is no way i can do what Berserkers do with DW vs 2 hand.
All i can say is join the Berserker channel and ask a few Zerkers how much DPS they can do on raids now, im not going to post it here cause you and most of the others will just flip out, but i will say its a 4 figure number. Id love to see a Berserker who DW's push out a 4 figure number, i dont give a sh.it how much math you throw at it, in reality, it works completely different, unless its bugged.
SoE need to take a long hard look at the amount of DPS a Berserker can do with a 2 hand wep compaired to DW, because it sure as hell arent no where as close as those numbers you show there.

Gurg, you can continue stating the same thing over and over and over, it won't necessarily make it correct.
On average, in an hour of auto-swing combat, using 2 DW weapons, you will proc the same number of times as with an equivalent 2H weapon.
And on average, in an hour of normal combat, using 2 DW weapons, you will proc many fewer times as with an equivalent 2H weapon.

If you want to use the numbers from my parse to generate an expectation of procs in a time period, you need to factor a margin of error due to sample size. As I didn't have an hour to spend on each test, I aimed for ~1000 hits each, which (because of the pitifully low DW proc rate of Gleaming Strike) results in a larger margin of error on the DW test.
And if you are still insistant that I am wrong, may I suggest you perform a similar test (testing means actual testing, not feelings you get while playing), and sample it until GS procs 50 times in each. (That would be about 60 minutes of normal DW combat, versus 45 minutes of normal 2H combat).

I'm sorry, Aonein, but virtually everything Gurg has posted is incorrect, and virtually everything you have posted on this subject is incorrect aswell.

If you are unhappy with that parse because it was too short, then I'll try to find some time to run a longer DW one (or heck, you could post some of your own, as you actually prefer to play in that tedious manner).

But I don't see what you are getting at with "in a dual weild sense, Berserkers are balanced". Is that saying "If I choose to **** myself in the biggest way possible, then my DPS is in line"? If so, then I'll agree with you.


And, again for the record, I disagree with you that the proc rate on CAs for 2H weapons is way too high. I say that 2H weapon proc chance is where it was intended to be, but DW proc rate is much lower than it should be (1/4 what it should be for 1.5sec DW weapons).

And then, if you were to balance CA proc rates between the setups you would be in a much better position to argue where Berserker DPS is and should be, but also bear in mind, that making this change would greatly increase the DPS output of other DW classes (i.e. Scouts), so you'd be looking at a different relative scale.

Finally, the 4-figure DPS numbers you allude to in your post as "Raid DPS" are no such thing. 1k+ DPS is burst DPS on sub-30-second AoE fights. Extended "Raid DPS" is much lower

So what you're saying is you refuse to test what I have been saying the whole time (knowing it will prove me right, as your own figures have done again and again), and will instead test the same number of SWINGS, which ANY BLOODY MORON WHO CAN ADD will know gives the 2H a distinct advantage?


Check my very first post..where I specifically stated "over the same duration"...where you started trying to argue that that wasn't the case at all...where your own supposed parse-generated data flat SAYS you're wrong.

CA's take the same time to cast and swing, and have the same delay between them, regardless of weapon held...I stated that to begin with, you restate it here, and try to grab it as support for your argument, when I already raised and disposed of the point for the purposes of the discussion.

....


YOUR maths prove me right, YOUR figures prove me right. For pure melee damage (non-CA swinging), the DW edges out the "equivalent" 2H, if they're all imbued, the DW FAR outstrips it, and YOUR FIGURES prove it, dumkopf! And here you go, when that's rubbed in your face, trying to claim that that wasn't what you were testing, you were testing something that was never in debate...good CHRIST! Of BLOODY COURSE the same number of swings from a pair of 25 damage weapons are not going to do the same damage as a single 100 damage weapon! The whole advantage is in the fact that they do more swings in the same bloody time period....how bloody blindly ignorant are you to fail to grasp that?

ROFL!! to the "BAW"
Going to throw this out there for you as advice from experience, use it as you will. It's more efficient to not necessarily burn down mobs with everything you've got, but to use a steady supply of CA's until your entire group is out of power, then take a group break to regen, rather than to save and continously pull and do only a partial amount of your capability. It might not be as big a deal for you now, but it definately is later as you move to the choice weapon of sheep everywhere :robotvery-happy:

I am back, cause I like math.

What you fail to compensate for is that during anytime you are casting a CA, stunned, or stifled, you lose more DW swings than 2H swings. Each DW swing you lose tilts the scales in favor of 2H. Additionally, each CA used further tilts the scales to 2H. Add Haste, which has a greater effect on slower 2H weapons than DW, and you MUST come to the conclusion that 2H generates more DPS than DW when all things are equal.

Also, you neglected to mention that your numbers unfairly adjusts the CA numbers in favor of DW.

First, you are using the number that when adjusted is close, but not the other number:

FA Procs for 2H = 93 (30 off CAs)
Adjusted FA Procs for DW = 24 * 2.625401929~ = 63 (13 off CAs)

Clearly, 2H wins hands down.

Secondly, the number "2.625401929~" unfairly adjusts the numbers in favor of DW, observe:
CAs used for 2H is 436
CAs used for DW is 195 * 2.625401929~ = 512

Thus, this adjusted number actually presumes that more CAs were used with the DW weapon than with the 2H, rather than what you implied with this statement:
"and this is WITHOUT assuming that you were setting off more CAs per encounter to boost the disparity." (For those slow on the uptake, this means that Grug did what he implied Pin might have done.)
So, we note the "adjusted" proc rates as follows.

2H remains the same:
Auto-swing hits: 710
Combat Art hits: 436
Furious Assault: 93 (30 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 46 (17 off CAs)

FA%: 8.1% (6.9% off CAs)
GS%: 4.0% (3.9% off CAs)

DW adjusted:
Auto-swing hits: 2315.60
Combat Art hits: 511.95
Furious Assault: 63 (13 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 45 (5 off CAs)

FA%: 2.2% (2.5% off CAs) - 73% less than 2H (64% less than 2H)
GS%: 1.7% (0.9% off CAs) - 57.5% less than 2H (77% less than 2H)

In conclusion:

Even when adjusted so that the DW numbers are increased by a factor of over 2.6, making 2315 hits vs 710 hits and 511 CAs vs 436 CAs in favor of DW, the 2H STILL procs more and at a rate greater than two times that of DW.

I call that a win =P
Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-26-2005 02:05 PM

The evidence suggests, however, that a DW weapon procs at HALF the stated rate, rather than the full rate. I wonder if this is coded into the weapon or the slot. That is, could one use a DW weapon and a shield and expect the same number of procs as using a 1H with the same delay? Or would the DW still exhibit half proc rates?

I think you may have misinterpreted the numbers. As far as I can tell, that 1.6% chance to proc is counting both DW weapons. There were 17 procs from 1077 combined hits (both DW + CA), or 1.58% chance per hit. Your per-second chance is then around 1.1%, significantly less than the 2H rate.

Removing CA data altogether (for Gurg's benefit, I guess) leaves you with (29/710)/2.3 = 1.78% chance per second for 2H, and (15/882)/1.5 = 1.13% chance per second with a pair of DW.

najena.konk

Sokolov did you purposely skip Mordocks post ? Thats the win.

No, I answered it.

Did you skip mine? Mordock's conclusions were predicated on misinterpreted data.
najena.konk

Yep, besides, regardless of what Mordock said, my numbers, based on Grug's adjusted numbers, still holds true to show that in a real combat situation.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-26-2005 01:39 PM

Not really kono cause he cut the parse short, the amount of CA's he used displays that when you look at how many times he used them with DW compaired to 2 hand seeing as there always the same cast timers he should of gone off how many CA's he used to compare the amount of time parsed, not swings.
Just double the amount of swings here and redo the calculation.

Grug and I did that already. 2H still procs more by over 2x.

Oh, and we didn't just double the swings on DW, we increased it by over 2.6...... and 2H STILL wins.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-26-2005 01:40 PM

No your missing the point Sokolov, double the amount of Dual Weild swings and leave the 2 hand parse data as is, you will find that CA proc damage is still more on 2 hand, but weapon proc damage on the dual weilds is more then the 2 hand.

GS% on DW would be 6.2% compaired to 2 hand which is 5.2%
CA% on DW would be 9% compaired to 2 hand which is 10.6%

The 2H parse data was never adjusted by myself nor Grug, so I don't know what you are talking about.

2H (original):

Auto-swing hits: 710
Combat Art hits: 436
Furious Assault: 93 (30 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 46 (17 off CAs)

FA%: 8.1% (6.9% off CAs)
GS%: 4.0% (3.9% off CAs)

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 10.6% (9.0% off CAs)
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 5.2% (5.1% off CAs)

DW (Doubled):

Auto-swing hits: 1764
Combat Art hits: 390
Furious Assault: 48 (10 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 34 (4 off CAs)

FA%: 2.2% (2.6% off CAs)
GS%: 1.6% (1.0% off CAs)

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 4.5% (5.1% off CAs)
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 3.2% (2.1% off CAs)
We can also clearly see that 2H still procs more 93 vs 48 and 46 vs 34, and at a greater proc rate.
I don't know who taught you math, but doubling the amount of DW swings does not in ANY way increase the proc %.

That's like saying if you are getting something at 50% off if you double the original price you get 100% off - ridiculous, right?
Now, what you said would be true if we simply doubled the DW procs and kept the swings and CA uses the same, but that would just be cheating =D So no
Anyway, I guess the point I didn't understand is you don't understand math. I apologize for my oversight.

Heck, let's be generous:
DW (Increased 20x):

Auto-swing hits: 17640
Combat Art hits: 3900
Furious Assault: 480 (100 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 340 (40 off CAs)

FA%: 2.2% (2.6% off CAs)
GS%: 1.6% (1.0% off CAs)

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 4.5% (5.1% off CAs)
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 3.2% (2.1% off CAs)
Wow, 2H still procs at a higher rate, imagine that.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-26-2005 02:16 PM

So hang on here, in between this post :
GurgTheBashur wrote:

So what you're saying is you refuse to test what I have been saying the whole time (knowing it will prove me right, as your own figures have done again and again), and will instead test the same number of SWINGS, which ANY BLOODY MORON WHO CAN ADD will know gives the 2H a distinct advantage?


Check my very first post..where I specifically stated "over the same duration"...where you started trying to argue that that wasn't the case at all...where your own supposed parse-generated data flat SAYS you're wrong.

CA's take the same time to cast and swing, and have the same delay between them, regardless of weapon held...I stated that to begin with, you restate it here, and try to grab it as support for your argument, when I already raised and disposed of the point for the purposes of the discussion.

....


YOUR maths prove me right, YOUR figures prove me right. For pure melee damage (non-CA swinging), the DW edges out the "equivalent" 2H, if they're all imbued, the DW FAR outstrips it, and YOUR FIGURES prove it, dumkopf! And here you go, when that's rubbed in your face, trying to claim that that wasn't what you were testing, you were testing something that was never in debate...good CHRIST! Of BLOODY COURSE the same number of swings from a pair of 25 damage weapons are not going to do the same damage as a single 100 damage weapon! The whole advantage is in the fact that they do more swings in the same bloody time period....how bloody blindly ignorant are you to fail to grasp that?

And this post :

Sokolov wrote:

Grug and I did that already. 2H still procs more by over 2x.

Oh, and we didn't just double the swings on DW, we increased it by over 2.6...... and 2H STILL wins.
Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-26-200501:40 PM

Which is less then a 3 hour period you and Gurg had time to test and talk about this right? Let me recap something Gurg said here :
GurgTheBashur wrote:
" YOUR maths prove me right, YOUR figures prove me right. For pure melee damage (non-CA swinging), the DW edges out the "equivalent" 2H, if they're all imbued, the DW FAR outstrips it, and YOUR FIGURES prove it, dumkopf! And here you go, when that's rubbed in your face, trying to claim that that wasn't what you were testing, you were testing something that was never in debate...good CHRIST! Of BLOODY COURSE the same number of swings from a pair of 25 damage weapons are not going to do the same damage as a single 100 damage weapon! The whole advantage is in the fact that they do more swings in the same bloody time period....how bloody blindly ignorant are you to fail to grasp that? "
Are you and Gurg on the same page here?
What im trying to find out is someone out there must have a dual set of Pristine Imbued Ebon Leafblades, surely someone does, because id love to see the difference from those compaired to a 2.1 second delay 2 hander seeing that the leafblades are 2.1 second delay. I dont have a set, and im not about to go and waste 2 peices of ebon on it.
Also Sokolov, CA's are mostly Instant cast timers now or 0.5 seconds, not the 2 and 3 seconds they used to be before, so the amount of swings a dual weild set loses isnt no where near as bad as it used to be.
Can someone please tell me how to upload pictures onto here so i dont have to go use some site to upload it to there then link it here please?