Half the man I used to be ... (maybe a quarter of the elf actually)

Ok...at 35, when I was doing these experiments, I had Polished Granite Tomahawk and Pristine Imbued Feysteel Short Sword. I have forgotten what the item "rated" damage in my hands was, at 35, but the day before the patch is when I did the experimenting, and with the buffs I was using at the time, most of my hits popped a little orange "25" out of the mobs, some only got a "20" and some would get a nice big "30", but the average WAS 25 per hit per weapon, discounting berserker having been proced.


As I said, I don't recall what the "your damage" field said in specific, but I DO know that it was teens to 30s with both weapons...as for how I managed this, major +str adds on armor, plus an imbued opaline ring of strength. Anyhow, knowing my minimum was teens, and my maximum was 30s with these weapons, I rounded at both ends...up at lwoer end to "20" and down at upper to "30"...MAYBE my actual figure to strike a median should have been 24, but it makes no practical difference.

The same day, same equipment, etcetera, I went with a pristine imbued feyiron bastard sword. Again, I don't remember "your damage" figures precisely offhand, I recall noting that my median figure was about 75, and delay was 2.5.


So 25 per hit and 75 per hit per weapon are actually both "fair" and "balanced" claims.


Your 4 to 1 ratio is horse puckey....dual wields can be wielded alone, or with shield, and, if imbued, have the same 5% proc rating...and as for claiming that the cast is itself limited to every 3 seconds, that's bull, because not fifteen minutes ago, I chain proced it with my pair of imbued fulginate spathas...two successive swings, and my spell channel announced two successive casts of Gleaming Strike...and this isn't the first time I've had it happen...I ALWAYS notice it (love it when I get the triple "lightning strike" twice in immediate succession). SoE may have put that figure OUT there, but if so, it's not working that way (as I said, prior to 40, was using the tomahawk and an imbued spatha, so chaining MoE and GS wouldn't have conflicted, according to your ideas, so I can't tell you if this was true pre-patch)...

The fact that I HAVE chained them like that says that the 5% rating is per hit per weapon, even if theres a 3 second recast time on each weapon's procing of it.

Which works out to an average of 1 in 20 hits per weapon. Which works out to 1 in 10 hits when using two weapons, because you'll proc it twice in 20 double swings.

So the only mistake I made there is forgetting that that 1 in 10 works for double hits, not "total hits". SO halve the GS damage I quoted, and it's spot on.



As for the weapon shield point...examining the spell fails to say that, at adept 1 and above...paying attention while testing this in game, before answering this says you're right...which means that in a 'zerker comparison, it has no advantage towards either. Which means, since this WAS giving advantage to the 2H user, you've widened the gap again.


And it's still in favor of the DW, regardless of what DPS rating says it SHOULD be.
Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-21-2005 01:34 PM

If you've ever pulled with a longbow with proc buffs on, you'll notice you proc nearly every shot. Often you will proc multiple procs. This is because a bow has such a HUGE delay, which is factored into the proc % rating.

Therefore, increasing the number of attacks via haste or CAs increases the number of actual procs produced. This is easily verifiable with any parser that has a database component. This means that higher delay weapons benefit from such increases more so than faster types of weapons.

Additionally, riposte does not scale this way, meaning that DW when tanking increases damage taken.

(Pre-vamp, I could do as much DPS with a bow sometimes as I could in melee if I wasn't tanking. How/Why? Bow itself does anywhere from 250-400. Imbued bow with 10% gleaming strike, 2h with 12% ancient flame, Anarchy proc, Bloodrage proc, and whatever other procs other players casted on me meant that every shot was potentially 1k damage, tho not often does it actually reach that, of course.)
Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-21-2005 02:36 PM

++Xan
Message Edited by xandez on 09-22-2005 09:46 AM

Getting back on track with the op. I was so angry the first day I played I wanted to quit immediately. I came back pretty quick though as I have become a little addicted to the game and am ok with my character most of the time now. I have adjusted play style dramatically over the 40+ hours I have played since update. However I do get a little frustrated seeing characters 3 levels lower than me (I'm 46) solo things that woop me or I have trouble killing. In particular the 48 one up ghouls in the sands. I can kill them but if my big attacks resist I am in trouble and might not win the fight. To sit and watch 43 paladins and necros take these down without much effort makes me think the balancing wasn't so balanced.

I want to point something out if you have the coercer put the velocity buff on you, along with your offensive stance you should be doing a crap ton dps. When i have velocity on my zerker from our coercer my auto attack dps jumps a crap ton, my RGF does like 700 average damage per swing with this buff on me.

Woot! I am back to being DPS when Taz is around, I am much too important to get bashed by monsters!

Gorn 50 SK
Blackburrow

And you're STILL missing that the chance to proc with a dual wield weapon is HALVED FOR EACH WEAPON WHEN COMPARED TO A TWO HANDER.

5% chance of Gleaming Strike firing when using a 2H weapon means "5% chance to proc in 3 seconds of unhasted auto-swing melee".
5% chance of Gleaming Strike firing when using 2 DW weapons means "5% chance to proc in 3 seconds of unhasted auto-swing melee".

You can reverse those statements to read:

Gleaming Strike on a 2.5sec 2H weapon has a 4.167% chance of firing on each hit.
Gleaming Strike on a 1.2sec DW weapon has a 1% chance of firing on each hit.

Why do you think it was set up that way? Because you hit 4.167 times more often when dual-wielding than with that 2H. If they procced at the same rate per hit, it would be completely unbalanced in favour of the dual-wield weapons.
So the devs balanced the weapons by making the 2H have a higher chance to proc with each hit. They then decided that it was too much work for players to compare the weapons if one said "4.167% chance per hit" and the other said "1% chance per hit", so they did the work for you and displayed it as the chance to proc in 3 seconds of melee".

This system works very well for balancing auto-swing melee, but greatly favours slow 2H weapons when using combat arts. But this has been covered several times on these forums already (months ago). However, if you don't believe it, go get a pair of imbued fulginate/teak DW weapons, and an imbued fulginate/teak 2H (or use ebon/cedar if you can afford) and do test for 10 minutes with logging turned on, then parse the results.

The only thing that may be an advantage, and I am not sure if this is even true, is that if you DW you can get an extra Gleaming Strike proc chance. We know that you can't proc Gleaming Strike twice on a given attack, but there is no reason why it doesn't check the proc once for each imbue (up to 3 if you count the bow). If it doesn't work this way, then everyone who has been getting an imbued melee and an imbued bow has been ripping themselves off.

I am, of course, in the 2H camp myself =D

From what we where to what we have become is certainly a huge, huge difference. From a grouping point of view ... in my opinion, we where not as overpowered as everyone would have you believe pre LU13. Sure we had a some good buffs ... group buffs mostly, yea we could put out some DPS .. so could other classes such as for example Guardians IF they outtfitted themselves towards doing DPS and sure we could tank pretty good, but here also you had to outfit yourself towards doing that and doing it well.

I think alot of the unbalances people speak of came from raiding situations and/or just buffstacking from ourselves or other classes. Of course I am just speaking about what I have experienced and seen. I never out DPSed a DPS class that knew thier business and was geared properly and had aggro pulled from me from said DPS classes if they applied themselves.

But that is all in the past and now we must unlearn what we have learned, it is certainly a challange ... and that in and of itself makes things interesting. I am personaly glad that other classes have been fixed and can hold their own when tanking, I think its only fair that they can. On the other hand I am not 100% convinced that all the fighter classes are balanced and when looking at them all side by side .. as in tanking, dps and utlilities, it seems the warrior classes have lost alot more then we have gained. While the other classes have came up and can tank as well as the warriors they also retain alot of nifty class defining tools that I feel the warriors have lost somewhere.

On the subject of berserkers, I am still concerned over our role/usefulness in a group when NOT tanking and/or NOT having the option to use AE arts or use our offensive stance which procs an AE. I also am not overly joyed on our health regens, the group one not working at the moment I am sure dont help much but I feel there could have been something more useful here. We seem to have been fashioned into a class that needs to be tanking and Aeing to shine and to contribute to our group at our full potential. That is cool and all but it seems to me that both tanking and AEing are highly situational, meaning you may not always be tanking or always have the option to cast AEs and if these two conditions are not met we could be considered subpar, where other fighter classes dont seem to have these type of restrictions to be at their best. I am sure many people will feverishly disagree but thats my opinion and I am entitled to it, just as anyone has the right to disagree.

Was hoping I wouldn't have to do this Gurg, but your math has forced my hand. So here we go:
To show the difference between two-hand and and duel wield you hvae to look at the whole picture, since I don't know of anyone who just sits in a group and auto attacks. So here we go (I'm going to use the extreme's in delay to show the difference):

1.) 2 Hand 3.8 Second Delay Two-Hand Weapon with 12% chance to proc. Actual proc rate of the weapon is equal to: 3.8/3*proc rate = 15.2% chance to proc.
Every 60 seconds you swing 15.8 times. So your auto attack procs = 2.4
2.) 2x 1.2 Second Delay Dual Wield somethings both with 12% chance to proc. Actual proc rate of each weapon is equal to: 1.2/3*proc rate = 4.8%
Every 60 seconds you swing 100 times. 4.8
At this point in the juncture you are beating the pants off of the 3.8 second delay weapon. However, generally speaking the majority of the difference in the two weapons come from using Combat Arts. So lets guess that in that minute we use 20 successful combat arts. So now we have:
35.8 Swings with a 3.8 second delay weapon so your total procs = 5.44
120 swings with the 1.2 second delay weapon so your total procs = 5.76
Uh oh, its getting closer. Now take into consideration that the 3.8 second delay changes the chance to proc on all your combat arts. So chance to go berserk, chance to proc offensive stance, etc. Now all of a sudden the 3.8 second delay weapon is beating the snot out of the 1.2 second delay weapon b/c its increasing your chance to proc everything. That's why slow is better, b/c it effects multiple chances to proc, and not just the one listed on your weapon.
Note About the Calculation: % of succesfull attacks wasn't calculated b/c it doesn't really hold much bearing due to the fact that each weapon would have an equal chance of being resisted if tracked over an infinite number of swings, thereby reducing the number of attacks of each by a equal margin. Also, when you use a combat art you only get 1 chance to proc with that combat art, not two. When dual wielding if you trigger rampage and hit a mob with a CA it will cast 1 rampage proc, not 2.

You're missing two things still, in your insistances:

First, it's not 1%, it's 2%....(delay / 3.0) * chance of proc FOR EACH WEAPON THE PROC IS AVAILABLE FOR

If you dual wield, and have one imbued, and one non-imbued, both with 1.2 second delay, you have ONE weapon which will proc it based on THIS figure: 1.2 /3.0 * .05, which is EVENLY .02, or 2%...so you have a 2% chance upon each strike of that weapon to cast GS...which means in 100 swings, it will cast twice...since you effectively swing BOTH weapons with each cycle, you will have hit the target a total of 200 times in 120 seconds, 100 times with each dual-wielded weapon, which gives you 2 procs of the GS "spell". In 240 seconds, you will have cycled your swing 200 times, hitting the target 200 times with each weapon, proccing the GS "spell" 4 times...which means with 250 seconds (to match the 2H 100 swing time), you will have cycled your strikes often enough to PRECISELY match the 2H proc chance, with only ONE imbued weapon equipped on your dual wielder.

Thus if you have TWO imbued weapons, EACH of them runs this cycle INDEPENDANTLY, as it is cast PER IMBUED ITEM on its own cycle and calculation...this is why it is possible to cast it twice in the same swing cycle...it comes once off each weapon, independantly.

Which, as you can see, doubles the chances of casting it for a dual wielder.



And yes, it was set up that way to "balance" it...so that if you have one imbued item equipped, you have equal chance of proccing the "spell"...by equipping two, or two weapons with differing procs, each runs on its own cycle, as shown by parsing, or even just watching your spell window with spell announcements and combat dmg turned on, and working the math.

Sorry for double posting to handle this, but I can't manage to get it to stick if I try to quote both of you in a single reply.

You dropped the "2X" figure in your calculations...


2.) 2x 1.2 Second Delay Dual Wield somethings both with 12% chance to proc. Actual proc rate of each weapon is equal to: 1.2/3*proc rate = 4.8%
Where'd the "2X go?

Here's the actual calculation, in full: # of weapons * (delay average, if multiple weapons, delay if single weapons/3.0) * proc rate

which is 2 ( 1.2 / 3.0 ) 0.12 for duals with 1.2 second delay each and each with 12% chance to proc
2 ( 0.4 ) 0.12
0.8 * 0.12
0.096
9.6% effective chance to proc on any swing cycle


OK...now, 15.2% chance to proc on any cycle vs 9.6% chance looks like 2H has advantage...wrong...look at how many swing cycles in a given time
1.2 is 316.66~% faster than 3.8, so a guy with a 1.2 second swing cycle swings 3.166~ times for every swing the 3.8 second 2H makes
So by the time the 3.8 second 2H swings 1000 times, proccing his GS 152 times, the DW swings 3166.66~ times with each weapon, proccing HIS 303.99936 times [(3166.66 * .096) to use the "percent chance per swing", or (6233.33 * .048) to use the "number of hits made in the same time and percent per weapon" calculation]
call it 304 times, and it's EXACTLY double the rate of proc for the 2H, demonstrating that the "balance" is only when comparing one imbued weapon equipped with one imbued weapon equipped. Which makes sense...you've got twice the number of imbued items equipped, so you SHOULD proc it twice the number of times. Doing it any other way makes it so if a DW uses ANY imbued weapon, he has to use TWO of them with the same imbuement in order to match...and that's NOT what SOE did...they're caclulated on a "per imbued item equipped" basis...not even neccessary to parse to see that, just turn on combat damage and spell messgaes in chat window, go kill a few mobs without casting during combat, and look back at your window messages.



Now let's look at pure melee damages for accurate comparison....to arrive at DPS for melee, you figure it this way # of hits per cycle / seconds it takes to make a full cycle * damge done per hit = DPS

so...DW, pair of 1.2 second weapons that do 30 damage each per hit hits once with each weapon per cycle, so his calculation is
2/1.2 * 30 = DPS 1.66~ * 30 = DPS 50DPS

let's see what base damage you must have with a 1H or 2H at common delays to match that, shall we?


if 2 / 1.2 * 30 = 50 DPS, and we're trying to figure out what base damage is to match 50 DPS, the formulae would be # of hits per cycle / average delay * base damage = DPS, and isolate "base damage", so THIS formulae becomes DPS / (# of hits per cycle / average delay) = base damage required.

so here are the figures you have to hit to match a DW with 1.2 second delay and 30 base damage average in pure melee

1.2 second DW 50 / ( 2 / 1.2 ) = base damage 50 / 1.66666666~ = base damage 30 = base damage
1.7 second 1H 50 / (1 / 1.7 ) = base damage 50 / .5882 = base damage 85 = base damage
2.0 second 1H 50 / (1 / 2.0 ) = base damage 50 / .5882 = base damage 100 = base damage
2.5 second 2H 50 / (1 / 2.5 ) = base damage 50 / .4 = base damage 125 = base damage
3.8 second 2H 50 / (1 / 3.8 ) = base damage 50 / .2632 = base damage 190 = base damage

All the "base damages" are the average melee damage per hit you'd have to achieve with each change in weapon delay to match the melee DPS of a DW...work it for yourself.
Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-22-2005 11:49 PM
Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-22-2005 11:52 PM

And that's where you're wrong, because I've bloody DONE it. You stop meleeing when casting, and I have had cases where I cast something slow like stunning cry, got in ONE melee swing, had two procs of GS off it, and immediately began casting something like whirlwind or berserker assault, which ALSO takes forever to cast, and had my combat damage/spell window announce the first cast of stunning cry, the melee hit of one weapon, the cast of GS, the melee hit of the other weapon, the cast of GS, then the cast of the second "slow skill"...You CAN, and I HAVE (more than once, though it IS exceedingly rare) cast it off each weapon seperately in the same swing.

Sheeh. How many times do I have to say?

The proc chance of one dual wield weapon is halved.

You have half the chance of it firing on a hit with a DW weapon, when compared to an equal-speed 2H weapon.

You have the same chance of it firing with two dual wield weapons as with one 2H weapon.

You will get half the number of procs with one dual wield weapon in 10 minutes of auto-swing as you will with a 2H weapon.

You will get the same number of procs with two dual wield weapons in 10 minutes of auto-swing as you will with a 2H weapon.

You will get more procs with a 2H weapon in normal combat (including combat arts) than with two dual wield weapons.


Every 'calculation' you've posted about procs is based on the incorrect assumption that a proc on a DW is the same as a proc on a 2H. It isn't. Go run some proper tests before trying to spread false information on the subject.

Ok enough Pin. You never post any parses to substantiate your own position (or you link irrelevant threads such as with the procs discussion 6 months ago). Badgering this guy for something you dont do yourself not only isnt very friendly but tends to diminish your credability on this board to "a guy who makes alot of noise and badgers anyone who disagrees with him"
Hey post some real parses (or links to real parses), be objective and avoid "sheesh" and other badgering terms, being detail oriented isnt enough you actually have to prove empiriclly your points.

I HAVE run the tests, that's what I've been trying to tell you.



And then I've used your OWN calculations to show you what you're missing...I don't know how the hell you've failed to catch what I'm saying. Are you not even looking at them?

YES, you show a 4.167% effective chance to proc with a "5%" rated GS imbued 2H with 2.5 second delay

YES, you show a 2% actual chance to proc with a single "5%" rated GS imbued DW with a 1.2 second delay

So YES, a " SINGLE imbued DW has "halved" the chance to proc.


BUT

that 2H "effective" means that in 100,000 swings, it will cast GS 4,167 times...and it will take 250,000 seconds to MAKE that many swings on auto-swing
and in 250,000 seconds, with ONLY one weapon slot filled with a 1.2 second delay DW weapon that is GS imbued you will swing 208,330 times with that weapon

208,330 * .02 = 4,166.6


See? In the same time period, you will proc it the same number of times, when on auto-swing, with 1 DW equipped as you will with one 2H equipped.

This is using YOUR formula to figure out the "effective" proc rate for an imbued weapon: (delay/3.0)proc chance ( 1.2 / 3.0 ) 0.05 = 0.02

It's NOT "halved" again by equipping a second one, because I hit them too often, according to my combat damage/spell window...about 4 times in 100 strikes, according to last nights CLOSE attention-paying while deliberately ONLY meleeing against green mobs, so I could test it yet again. Not 100 swing cycles, but about 1 in 25 "you did X slashing damage to <target>" messages was followed by the Gleaming Strike announcement...consistantly, through three hours of steady pure-melee, no combat-skill-casting, unbuffed combat.




Edited to correct the dropped 0 in "250,000"
Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-23-2005 07:04 AM

I'm done posting the math, because its like trying to teach a chimp quantum physics. YOU DO MORE DAMAGE WITH A RGF (or big slow delay weapon) THAN YOU DO WITH 2x SUPER FAST FABLED DUAL WIELDS (or any two dual wield weapon) WITH THE SAME CHANCE TO PROC. There is a reason that 95% of the berserkers who can get a RGF use it over any combination of 2x fables dual wields they can get. I have no idea what gear/etc you have, but I seriously doubt that you've stumbled onto something new that no one else realized in the nearly a year the game has been out. If dual wields that are the same in every way to a two-hand really are better, don't you think that 95% of the berserkers that could use them would? Rather than the current situation which is exactly the opposite?