Half the man I used to be ... (maybe a quarter of the elf actually)

yes, Sabin, I DO think there's a reason...two reasons, really.

The first reason is: It is easier to find/aquire a truly killer 2H weapon...there just aren't that many high-end duals available for each tier, and imbued duals are, pretty much by definition, not "truly spectacular" weapons...at best, the best craftables, regardless of fabled, legendary, etcetera rating, are just "damned good" compared to the top of the line stuff you can get for the hardest quests or rarest drops in a tier. Thus the early folks playing discovered early on that if they busted [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], did the "grind for the drop", and so on, they'd get their hands on a 1H or 2H that just beat the snot out of anything, imbued or not, that a player could craft...which meant that using that weapon was preferable to using DW crafteds. And 2H has a distinct advantage over 1H/S, most of the time, so those were the ones those players lusted after more, worked harder to get...especially as fighters.

The second reason is: most gamers are sheep. They saw the early players they looked up to lugging around those nasty quest or extremely rare drop 2H weapons, and, if they asked ANYTHING, it was "why not dual wield?", to get the answer "because I do more damage this way"...which, of course, they did, having aquired the "BAW" for the tier (bad [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] weapon). If these players did NOT ask, they simply assumed that the 2H MUST be better...and if they were paying attention to the forums, they heard all the talk about preferring the 2H hard-to-aquire weapons over the 1H ones, because they were better damage-dealers, and made the asumption that this is an "always-true" thing, across the board.


The numbers and facts, though, say that if you're comparing similar "class" weapons, the 2H and DW setups are DAMNED close on melee DPS, with slight advantage for the DW in ideal circumstances, slight disadvantage to him in real play, compared to the 2H (more often lose part of your "per swing" damage due to missing with one weapon, or having one or both halves of the "double swing" evaded or parried, or whatnot, since you're making more swings, the mob or opponent has a better chance to avoid, parry, etcetera...it still works out close to even, but the figures are so close that the marginal advantage under ideal circumstances for DW becomes a marginal disadvantage when you figure these losses of damage into it...so the only REAL advantage becomes case-specific...when using same class/tier IMBUED weapons...and it's such a caseispecific deal, how many people spent the money to test it out under those cuircumstances? WHy would the hardcore players even bother to do so? They ALREADY knew that there was a 2H available as a rare drop or a quest reward that would outperform any pair of imbued duals they could buy or craft, and that if there was a DW weap available for that tier, the same way, their chances of aquiring a pair were slim, if it was possible at all. The sheep, of course, didn't think about it, and the geeks like me who spend the Gold/Plat and run the tests on weapons that are effectively "best buyable" rather than "best I can get my hands on, if I dedicate myself to it" stuck with the results we'd found unless/until we lucked into the rare drop, or got into a situation where we could aquire that killer 2H, then switched because we'd run the figures, and knew at a glance which weapon was more effective.



Simple answer: The reason 95% are using 2H is that 80% are sheep, imitating the really good players, 5% are damned good players who dedicated their effort into aquiring the best damned weapon they could aquire for their tier, 5% are decent players who take the advice of the last 5%, and bust their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to aquire the "BAW", 5% are geeks who use DW until they "happen on" that killer 2H, then happily switch to the "BAW", having already figured out how to calculate which one will give them the best advantage, 2.5% (half of the remaining 5%) are DW until they CAN aquire the "BAW" for the tier, if they manage it, and 2.5% (the other half of the remaining 5%) are people noob enough to think they can't tank without a shield, or who refuse to go without using and boosting shield-stun skills, just because they're there, or have some other "reason" that's more excuse than reason.

I don't figure those are the real percentages...but it's a pretty close call on the ratio of each type of player...and this is true THROUGHOUT MMOs.



As for teaching a chimp physics...I'm suprised you managed to pass. I've been using the formulaes YOU and the other guy supplied for the figures, pretty much the whole time...not my fault you don't like the numbers they come up with, nor that you couldn't work those figures yourself. BTW...my double major is CSCI and applied maths :smileysurprised:
Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-23-2005 01:39 PM

Now you're both just embarrassing yourselves.


Yes, premiere 2H weapons are easier to acquire than premiere DW weapons, at least in tier 5, and that is a surely a contributing factor. Fabled DW weapons generally tend to find their way to Scouts, who aren't blessed with nearly as many options as we are. I won't fabricate any statistics to give my statements a false air of validity, but I've come across many more 1H and 2H weapons than I have DW weapons.

Ignoring the availability aspect, it has been found in the past (and will surely be confirmed in future tests) that a fighter with offensively triggered proc buffs will benefit demonstrably from a slow weapon. This is a result of the normalization of these buffs' proc rates being based on weapon delay, as I'm sure Sabin has tried to explain. Combat arts that are capable of triggering a proc buff will more frequently do so with a slower weapon. This difference is more significant when grouped with classes that offer their own proc buffs (such as Dirges).

I'll probably wind up doing some controlled tests to demonstrate this, because I think thorough practical testing is the only way to put this issue to rest. Sometimes people put too much faith in their math, but when the math ignores (or can't account for) certain factors, it's even less valuable than the random statistics people like to invent.

najena.konk

I've had Calc 3 and Game Theory, so I'm not much of a chimp myself. You can call people sheep but for someone I bet has never seen an RGF drop, let alone be able to use one you are quite the expert.
The amount you miss with a 2-Hand and the amount you miss with 2x dual wields doesn't make a difference. With the same stats you will have an equal chance to miss with both. The chance to miss is independent of the weapon you are using. Let me dumb it down for you since you're have a hard time grasping it. If I have a 2 hand I'm going to miss 10% of the time for a given stat set (this is an example btw incase you're not following). So if I make 20 swings I'll miss on 2 of the swings. If I have 2x dual wields I'm going to miss 10% of the time. So if its 100 swings I'll miss on 10 of the swings. Now if you break out your little calculator and divide 18/20 and 90/100 you'll get the same answer 90%. So in "real" play it doesn't make a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] difference since over an infinite swing interval the to-hit of each is indentical.
As for being sheep, I'll keep on being one and keep on doing more DPS than you could ever think is possible. By the way, post me the link to your character so I can put an image by the person who thinks he's the next DPS Einstein. And as for your "killer fabled dual wields are hard to find" that's pretty much bull$hi T. Bruisers are the best example of this. Bruiser usable weapons with 12% proc rates had a large drop percentage compared to the number of RGF drops that used to happen prior to the reopening of the Thundering Steppes raid zone. I have a guildy who's a bruiser and he does way more damage with the RGF than with his 2x FABLED 12% chance to proc weapons. So I've seen the difference in action.

Pre-vamp, a zerker, much like a ranger, could do a significant amount of damage simply via procs.

I usually didn't pull without anarchy and bloodrage both up, and would usually try and get off two bow shots before the mob arrived in camp. The damage was insane as I was almost guaranteed 2 or 3 procs on every hit.

I believe that post-vamp, with much of the zerker arsenal changed from offensive procs to defensive reactive procs, DW is a much more viable style, altho 2H still procs more often enough to make it undisputed for maximum DPS potential when all other things are equal.

Coloring answer secontions to match section I'm responding to:


Yes, the miss percentages are the same...but, as you pointed out, the miss NUMBERS are signifigantly higher for the DW. That DOES make a difference, and again, it's marginal. The net effect is to take what is a MARGINAL DPS advantage in the hands of a DW and turn it into a marginal disadvantage...overall, they're VERY evenly matched, outside the imbued proc advantage a DW enjoys...which he enjoys ONLY if he has a pair of weapons that COMBINED, balance against the 2H they are compared to, and all three weapons in question have a proc with same % rating.

I've worked the math to death for you, to demonstrate that, with "matched" weapons, the melee DPS advanatage for a DW vs comperable 2H is marginal indeed (as it was designed to be), and I've also worked the proc figures, using the formulae YOU provide to support it.

As for your math credentials, anyone, no matter how educated, can make a mistake, so I can believe you dropped the "2x" portion the first time you figured 4.6% for a DW...but after having it pointed out that you did, you STILL failed to catch on to what I was saying...to me, that indicates either a stubborn unwillingness to be wrong (something I fully understand, believe me), or a flat lack of understanding of statistics and analysis...I couldn't guess which...however, the implied insult was a direct response to YOUR offered insult...if you don't like having it fed back to you, don't try to put it on my plate to begin with.



Now, did I say you were one of the sheep? Not at all...I said MOST gamers are sheep, a fact that's undeniable...look around you in game. How many people build up a unique character, and how many spend their time trying to get the same gear "everyone else has", despite the fact that anyone who LOOKS at thins can see that that generally utilized gear simply produces a decently balanced toon that's fairly easy to use, rather than one that's "tuned out" for specific purposes? How many folks are you seeing who have one FULL set of gear for soling, and a seperate one for grouping, so as to adjust where their overall strengths and weaknesses lie, and better set themselves up for the role they are playing at the time? You don't see many highly analytical players...they're as rare in MMO worlds as they are in the real world.

In all honesty, I don't know if YOU are one of the sheep, or not...for all I know, you might be one of the reasonably skilled players taking the advice of uber-players you've met, or you might be one of the uber-players yourself, having figured things out on your own, by analyzing OR by just having an innate feel for it. Chances are, though, you're one of the "geeks", like myself, who's put the time and effort into studying it, and, chances are, if it weren't purely for the sake of arguing, you'd actually look at the figures, and admit exactly what I've been trying to say, which is, for general purposes, the DW and the 2H and matched to the Nth degree for melee DPS, the DW has a real-time proc advantage on imbuements, if both the DWs are imbued with the same rating as the 2H they're compared with, etcetera. On the downside to that, what gives DW a marginal advantage in theory is a marginal disadvantage in actuality, when it comes to melee, the proc chance per swing works out as a disadvantage when it comes to skill-charged swings (K. up above, is right on that, and I haven't once tried to deny, or even address that aspect of the overall DPS calculations for a toon...I suspect that it would probably re-balance matched 2H/DW comparisons with a "mixed" use of skills and melee, give a distinct advanatge to the 2H when it's purely chaining skills to kill, and give the advantage to the DW when melee fighting was relied on more than firing skills, over the period of the encounter in question).



As for "never having seen, much less held an RGF"...nice of you to assume so much, mate. Do you ENJOY making an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] of yourself? In the same paragraph, you'd just revealed that you don't know me from Adam. You're right to assume that THIS toon/incarnation hasn't aquired any RGF, but how do you know that this isn't my third or fourth Station account? Or that I wasn't dragged into this game after months of analysis and playing alts (or even mains) on other's accounts to build them up, before I decided to play for myself? Do you know SQUAT about me? Nope, 'fraid not.


I'm afraid you're much mistaken, as well...I HAVE seen the RGFs, I DO pay attention in-game...this is why I flat stated that the "killer" 2H weapons are more easily aquired than a pair of DW that compare to them, at each tier...because it's flat true. I'm not saying that one CAN'T come up with a pair of DW that will compare...just that it's harder, and takes more dedication (and, as you yourself so kindly pointed out, they're mostly designed for medium armor using DD toons like bruisers than they are for toons that almost by definition have to be built up to at least be respectable as main tanks...assuming we're talking about the "BAW" for the tier, and not the third-or-fourth-best-available stuff easily and relatively cheaply found on the broker). While THIS account and toon haven't used them, himself, I'm familiar with them, and, as you sould be able to see, have put enough thought into them to know what's involved in aquiring them, compared to a comperable 2H, and to know, quite a bit ahead of time, what direction will work out best for me based on how I tend to play.




The main problem, and root cause of the debate, IMO, is that a couple of the posters ARE sheep, and spend too much time trying to support the belief they picked up from BEING sheep, rather than actually analyzing things, and refuse to believe any analysis that contradicts that belief, even conditionally, and the fact that I have been, almost exclusively, arguing from a POV of "the gear one can generally pickup with ease and economy to use as you burn through XP", rather than "the gear you have to have a good social support system and a lot of dedication, pateince, and time, to aquire".

There are plenty of folks with the patience, support system, and time to spend working their way through, and aquiring the "BAW" or other top end gear for each tier...they don't tend to level as fast, because heritages and long chain quests aren't the fastest XP out there, nor is farming for a drop. Most of those do it SPECIFICALLY to gain that BAW, though, and don't have the patience involved to do it TWICE, if possible, so they can get a pair of matched DW...etcetera.


On the other hand, someone simply interested in playing his way through with the stuff he can grab on the broker will find what I've had to say in here to be quite helpful...because it IS right, and it gives them the tools to HONESTLY look at a weapon and see if it's "sell junk" or "HOT [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]! It's time for me to dump these player-mades, and equip THIS little toy!", and not be dissappointed.

If I am a sheep cause I am on the correct side, then so be it! BAAAA!

LMAO Solokov!
You can't be a sheep "because" you're on the correct side mate...but you know that.

All I've been saying (and demonstrating) is that, without the "BAW", DW works out to be more DPS than a comperable 2H if you're talking imbueds, and otherwise they're damned closely matched. The downside of the faster weapons, though, is, as they said, you have a lower chance of procing anything inherent in the weapon on a "skill-powered" swing with a DW than with a 2H...if you spend more time in the average fight spending power than meleeing, that's a signifgant factor, I admit.

And all we are saying is that 2H does more DPS because of the skill-based procs and the fact that you lose less swings.

*shrug*

One rampage is all the evidence I need.

I have alot of respect for Sabin, but ill have to say bro, Grug is so correct its scary.
I been dual weilding since day 1, i hardly ever 2 hand, but ive done parses for both situations and dual weild procs more then 2 hand weps, i mean with Gleaming Strike which is a weapon proc based damage, single target.
The only reason that 2 hand weps were far more superiour the Dual Weild was because :
1) the amount of haste you could get and...
2) because the amount of haste you got didnt change the AoE proc rate from our CA's didnt change.
Now that we have 1/3 the amont of haste the gap is a hell of alot smaller, but the scale still tips towards 2 hand weps for amount of AoE procs done by CA abilitys, not weapon proc damage.
Its no secret, Dual Weilds will proc more weapon proc damage over time then a 2 hand weapon when Dual Weilding two of the same wep, but AoE damage far out weighs single target direct damage over a longer period of time which is why 2 hand weps for Berserkers pretty much makes us trivialised towards 2 hand weapons, and like you said the slower the better.
If you dual weild and do the extensive parsing, you will see that the Berserker class is really quite balanced in a Dual Weidling sense, but very overpowered in a 2 hand weapon sense. You cant do what you can do with a 2 hand weapon with Dual Weilds, there is no way you can, simply because of the amount of AoE damage caused by the slow 2 hand weps.
A simple test like i pointed out already is this, take a dual weild set of 1.2 second delay weps, parse both the weapon proc and CA AoE procs, then get a set of dual weild Leafblades with 2.1 second delays do the same again then finish up with a 3.8 second delay wep and do the same again, you will see that the slower the weps the more CA AoE procs and CA procs you will fire, but weapon proc ratio will be higher on Dual Weild set ups then slow 2 hand weps, thats the only advantage Dual Weild has over 2 hand weps.
If i have to be totally honest, they need to stop CA's from procing other CA's, like for example if you use Weapon guard, Rampage, and Furious Shout they all chain off each other, then out of every single one of these procs you can proc Furious Assualt and with a slow 3.8 second delay wep the damage is montrous, its scary damage, which is why they need to fix 2 hand damage proc ratios, its just too high.

Rampage has nothing to do with how many swings you do, hell you dont even have to swing your weapon to fire off all 10 procs, you can rely on Furious Shout, Frenzy which is 3 hits in one which every hit from just Frenzy can use up 3 of your 10 procs, Vanquish, Weapon Guard which when you get hit retaliates with melee damage which can then proc Rampage again of each hit, Slaughter which again is melee damage to group encounter which again you have the chance to proc again of each succesful hit, so in reality, you could stand there with your back to the mob and fire these CA's and not once swing your wep.........
Any one who weilds a 2 hand wep will tell you they rely more on there AoE damage to proc there Rampaging Blows then they do try and make it fire from pure auto attack damage, because if it came down to just Auto Attack damage, a 2 hander would be lucky to hit succesfully 10 times compaired to a set of Dual weilds, especially with a 3.8 delay wepaon vs two 1.2 second delays.
This is the difference between DW and Slow 2 hand weps, the difference is weapon proc damage vs AoE proc damage, which one do you think is going to win hands down?
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 09-25-2005 09:25 PM

For the record Aoenin I was agruing that 2Hand weapons do more damage, and they do proc more total over time (skills + weapons, etc.) I could give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] less about which procs the weapon roc more.
And to Gurg, the point I was arguing was just that 2Hand weapons are better atm than 2x dual wields. On auto attack dual wields are better than a 2 hander, but as you use more CA's the 2Hand makes a much bigger difference, especially the more proc'ing items you have. So like if you're running offensive stance, or you have a Cryptic Metallic Curiass the 2Hand is going to be better much quicker than if you only had the weapon proc.
Message Edited by Sabin the Great on 09-25-200503:20 PM
Message Edited by Sabin the Great on 09-25-2005 03:20 PM

But Sabin, you are now speaking about a rather specific conditional situation, when before you were saying it as a general "this is always true" situation, when, from the get-go, I was saying that the pure melee damage availability favored DW over 2H (albeit marginally), the auto-swing proc chance favored the DW over a comperable 2H signifigantly, etctetera.


Not trying to be a noodge here, but you spent 2 pages arguing that what I was saying was flat wrong, just to say "well, yeah, you're right, in the circumstances you're talking about, but in the specific circumstances I had in mind, I'm right"...and I never said you were wrong, under those circumstances, simply that those circumstances are NOT the "normal circumstances" available to anyone under 50 (or under 45, if they have a strong guild to support them and help them get the uber-stank gear).


Basic overall agreement seems to be "if you're under the 45-50 level range, go with the best DW imbued setup you can get unless you manage to get the BEST 2H available for your tier, then use it until the next tier becomes avilable, and switch back....unless you spend more than 1/3 of your combat time relying on your CAs, then a 2H imbued will probably help a bit more".


Maybe I should have stated it that bluntly to begin with...but I suspect you'd have still spent the time arguing, because you strike me as someone who likes to deabte for the sake of debating (much like myself).

Okay Gurg, you are right, you win.

*walks away, staff strapped to his back*

LOL...you're no fun!

Blah. Some parses from an hour or so of testing at the weekend, using imbued cedar weapons (all stating 5% chance to proc Gleaming Strike). Maybe not long enough to get accurate proc rates with 95%+ certainty, but should be good enough for this discussion.

Tests run with Unbridled Fury (stating 10% chance to proc Furious Assault) on single (to remove AoE procs from parse), blue-con (to stop my **** char dying while testing) mobs.


Using 1x 2.3sec delay 2H pristine imbued cedar pike:

Auto-swing hits: 710
Combat Art hits: 436
Furious Assault: 93 (30 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 46 (17 off CAs)

FA%: 8.1% (6.9% off CAs)
GS%: 4.0% (3.9% off CAs)

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 10.6% (9.0% off CAs)
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 5.2% (5.1% off CAs)


Using 2x 1.5sec delay DW pristine imbued cedar fighting baton:

Auto-swing hits: 882
Combat Art hits: 195
Furious Assault: 24 (5 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 17 (2 off CAs)

FA%: 2.2% (2.6% off CAs)
GS%: 1.6% (1.0% off CAs)

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 4.5% (5.1% off CAs)
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 3.2% (2.1% off CAs)


"adjusted for weapon delay" = percentage / delay * 3. This is the value that you should compare with the stated percentage on the weapons/spells. Note the 2H parse gives numbers very close to the 10% and 5% values, where the DW option is significantly less (closer to half the values).

Why is the DW option close to half the values? Because, as I said, it's set-up that way because you swing twice in the delay of the weapon, thus the chance of proc (just like the weapon's damage rating) needs to be halved to balance them.

Further, as the rate at which you fire combat arts doesn't change much in the two set-ups, the higher proc chance of of the 2H set-up results in more procs in a fight.

[Edit for additional : As the rate you use combat arts isn't based on weapon speed, you should compare the CA proc rates before adjustment in the setups (i.e. 6.9% vs 2.6% and 3.9% vs 1.0%). ]


Is that data satisfactory?

Also, if Aonein is reading, you'll see that the 2H proc rates are not overly inflated by this mechanic, it's the DW proc rates on combat arts which are cut in half. And like I said in the other thread here (and 6 months ago when it was last argued), to balance this, the proc rates when using combat arts (or anything which isn't auto-swing for that matter) needs to be independent of wielded weapon speed and type, and should just proc at the stated percentage. That will

a) slightly reduce the proc rates from combat arts on 2H weapons slower than 3.0sec,
b) slightly increase the proc rates from combat arts on 2H weapons faster than 3.0sec and
c) greatly increase the proc rates from combat arts on DW weapons.



I also did the following shorter tests:

Using 1x 1.5sec delay DW pristine imbued cedar fighting baton:

Auto-swing hits: 316
Combat Art hits: 87
Furious Assault: 9 (3 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 8 (0 off CAs)

FA%: 2.2%
GS%: 2.0%

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 4.5%
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 4.0%


Using 1x 1.9sec delay 1H pristine imbued cedar club:

Auto-swing hits: 294
Combat Art hits: 117
Furious Assault: 22 (7 off CAs)
Gleaming Strike: 11 (3 off CAs)

FA%: 5.4%
GS%: 2.7%

FA% adjusted for weapon delay: 8.5%
GS% adjusted for weapon delay: 4.2%
Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on 09-26-2005 04:57 PM

Thank you sir good stuff :smileyhappy:

Ok I'm with you on the CA rate not changing much.

When you say : "because you swing twice in the delay of the weapon" do you mean you swing twice because it's 2 weapons in a DW setup, or do you mean you swing twice in the time a 2hander swings once? Or twice per weapon in 3 second interval? I think that's where I'm stuck.

Also, if this is the case: "adjusted for weapon delay" = percentage / delay * 3 does that mean you want a lower delay 2hander for more procs since delay is a divisor?

Thanks for posting the tests by the way, I'm not arguing results just trying to understand.

My only objection is you still fail to compensate for the fact that those 816 hits were 408 swings, and the whole test of the DW encompasses about half the time period the 2H test does, as a result.

If you match time periods tested under, then the actual number of procs (not off CA, I've BEEN agreeing that procs of skill casts are more common with a 2H, but the total number of procs) will end up favoring the DW.

Which, in turn, means that the total damage done by GS in the time period is greater with the DW.




Ignoring the CA procs, which aren't in debate, here, look that the melle swing time and procs.


710 swings at 2.3 seconds is 1633 seconds.

882 hits by DW = 441 swings

441 swings @ 1.5 delay is 661.5 seconds...about a third of the time you gave your 2H.


46 total procs, 17 off of CA in 1633 seconds....so you had 29 melee-generated procs in 1633 seconds with your 2H

17 total procs with two of them off CA's, for a total of 15 melee-geerated procs in 662 seconds (and handing you some leeway again, by rounding up)


1633 / 622 = 2.625401929~

15 * 2.625401929~ = 39.3810289~



And, as you can see, by your own damned figures, once again, in the SAME TIME PERIOD of pure melee fighting, the duals proc more total incidents of GS.



Ok, let's look at the figures WITH the CA figures included....

46 in 1633 seconds.
17 in 622 seconds
17 * 2.625401929~ = 44.631832~


Funny, isn't it? WITH the CA figures, the total number of procs in the same period are right on top of each other...and this is WITHOUT assuming that you were setting off more CAs per encounter to boost the disparity.



And once again, what I've been saying all along is supported by the figures of someone who's been arguing it...when it comes to melee with imbued weapons, DW has a distinct advantage over others in the same period of time. An advantage which is reduced by the CA procs for single-equip weapons, just as the speed advantage itself is.
Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-26-2005 10:26 AM

I guess I didn't realize that attacking and using combat arts in a fight was a rather specific and conditional situation. Maybe its specific to the 3 people who choose to only auto-attack and conditional on the fact that players like to kill things quickly. So in that respect I apologize. I should've said contingent to a normal game situation (one in which a player actually auto-attacks and uses CA's) a 2Hand weapon is always better. How's that for you Gurg? :robothappy:
As for the arguing, I don't really like arguing for the sake of arguing, but I do like helping players (even misguided dual wield using ones) squeeze the most they can out of their class. Hence my repeated posts. So I will close with this comment, since we can't speak in generalities apparently on the forums: For the 90% of the time where you spend "1/3 of your combat time relying on your CAs" a slow 2Hand w/ the same proc WILL ALWAYS be better. So while dual wields may do more auto-attack damage, unless you're one of the 3 people who only use auto-attack or only use 2-3 CA's per fight, then this should make absolutely no difference to you.
/bow :robotvery-happy: