Fix berserkers pls.

Netty wrote:

I really wish people will stop saying this; it is a misnomer
Level 1 single target ability (one of the few we can compare between the tank classes) - All lvl 91 M1 details taken from u.eq2wire.com

SHADOWKNIGHT: Painbringer
408-680 (+109) (+109) (+109)
1.9% heal (+1.9) (+1.9) (+1.9)

GUARDIAN: Overpower
512-854

BESERKER: Rupture
341-1025

BRUISER: Pummel
379-1137

MONK: Waking Dragon
517-862

PALADIN: Faith Strike
512-854
1.6% Heal
You can work out the average hit for all these CAs:
Shadowknight: 871
Paladin: 683
Guardian: 683
Beserker: 683
Monk: 689.5
Bruiser: 720
Shadowknights are by far the biggest - in TSO they had a 30% increase all all spells/CAs and this damage will be increased further due to the mythical proc (DOT Ticks increase in size by 30% every tick). I'm unsure why bruisers got a slight increase but monks, guards, pallys, and zerkers all average about the same.
Zerkers have a lower "low end" but a higher "high end". This is true across all CAs between the warriors and was worked out a few years back the zerkers have a larger range" than guardians but they average the same.
The difference in the CAs/Spells is worked outafterwards
- Guardian AA enhance the damage of most of their AA; and have a prestige line meaning they are enhanced further.
- Monks also have their CA damage increased via prestige/AA
- Paladin CA damage is pretty pathetic but their spell damage is often AoE and their myth buff and Legionaries Wrath enhance spell damage significantly (based on their strength) so this skews perceptions.
Beserker CAs are not generally "enhanced" as much as the other tanks via AA... and in contrast have often received buffs and effects which incraeased their autoattack damage (100% AoE auto for instance and +DPS/haste from beserk) so the percentage damage done by CAs in their parses is often much lower.

So Beserker CAs are NOT "by far the smallest of all the tank classes"; the default CAs are actually identical to 3 other classes, they have just never been enhanced through AA as much. In fact in a single target CAs they will actually hit harder than Paladin CAs due to the increases base crit bonus mod of 1.5 vs 1.3
I really hope that zerker fixes can be made but just ramping up all the CAs by 30% (ala TSO and shadowknights) is NOT the answer; perhaps an effect that under beserk your combat damage is increased slightly? or even under beserk you "proc" your strength value after every CA you cast.

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

So what you are saying is that if you have 3 lvl 1 classes and the base damage output by the CA is the same. But if one of the classes have an increas CA:s by 30% who will then hit hardest? ofcs you have to count in the AA increas. And you cant look at one base CA that all the tanks have. You know all tanks have diff CA:s/spells right? I dont care what you think the CB doesent matter as a crusader is SO much higher parsing atm vs a warrior. And yes i know alot of it has to do with temp procs like ET POTM and so on. aoe auto and dps/haste? I tought you did know what you where talking about but i guess im wrong. What tank class can not cap those atm?
And i hope you do not mean that by increasing the berserk CA damage they will be like shadowknights in tso?

I don't see much wrong with zerkers from a raiding standpoint.
They do a phenomenal job at locking down 4-6 mobs, keeping aggro on them and staying up while a full raid melts them as fast as possible.
To me, that is exactly what the class was built to do, and they do it very well. Whether or not enough content exists out there to let them shine enough is a topic for debate, but putting our zerker on boar adds or dagarn HM adds, or Hargold, or many other drunder HM scripts, he does a wonderful job at the task.
Could he get a little more ae dps increase while doing it? Sure it would be nice to see, but isn't absolutely essential to the task since he's already successfully handling the required task.
I can see some arguements for something to help the class in heroic content maybe, but all in all the class is actually very good at its specific role even if most players don't value it or recognize it.
Certainly before I personally made the transition to higher end raiding, I didn't value this class. I can see why no EM raid force would think they are any good.

I really don't think comparing the level 1 unmodified basic attack is a good comparison of tank CA damage at end game.

Netty wrote:

My point was simple: the base value of the CAs is identical betwene monk/guard/paladin AND zerker That was between the "shared" ability (bascially the first damage ability all tanks gain at lvl 1)
It was also worked that guardian and zerker CAs were identical in damage output; although zerkers had more of a range so hit harder and hit for less but they average out the same.
Thus: zerkers do NOT have "the lowest CAs out of all the tank classes"... I've seen that repeated again and again and it is simply not accurate and will not give you the amunition in order to facilitate needed changes as the devs will simply say what I just did that "all" (well not SKs) fighter CAs are balanced between the classes, which they are
What you need to say is rather: "Zerkers CAs are not enhanced as much as other fighters through AA/Prestiges leaving to a descrepancy in fighter damage output which is especially obvious against single targets".

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

But as i said boli who cares what your base is when some can increas them by AA?

Ulrichvon wrote:

Yes they can but all the other tanks can do that just as well and tank ST mobs alot better. Not to talk about have better dps output better group utility and so on. No one has said that zerks can lock down some adds but really all tanks can... So there is no need to use a berserker those fights are rare. And some figths in Drunder HM its just plain better using a crusaders since they can survive better and do more dps on the adds.

Netty wrote:

I have to disagree here, the others don't do it as well. When we have to stick a guard or monk on these mobs they might get one round of them without issue, but we have far more frequent issues with them not being able to lock down all adds thru a burn thru every cycle the adds come.
Sure, yes we've killed these things with them tanking adds, but its far more reliable putting a class that excels at ae situations on the task. Out of 10 pulls, if we've got a ST tank on these adds, we probably first pull win 40-50% of them. If we put our zerker on the task we first pull 90% or better.
On the same token, we've had the zerker ST tank in a pinch, and we've killed mobs that are ST focused, but same thing is true, it takes more effort, more pulls, and more coordination to make it work.
I'd like to see the class get something that increases dps more significantly with the more mobs engaged (to a hard limit of course), just cause I think it would make the class more fun. I do not however think we need to give all tools to all tanks equally.
I can't tell you how many zerkers tell me they can't tank some ST mob, but the same zerkers are spec'd to PC.

Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

Nope, mod then xfer..
You said you prefered using taunts because of their range if they are in a grp of people you are trying to get them out.. why not use rescue instead of trying ot taunt them back..
i did mean reinforce and there are lots of reasons to have extra duration especially in drunder hm and pow where grps of mobs all memwipe at different times.. Another reason to have the final rank of enhance: reinforce to make it proc off of taunts for when you cant hit the mob but need to rescue it back, like when you have dragoons up..
more aa does improve recovery and cast, you are relying on defensive minded to be up to get that and well, its not up all the time.. 4 ca's > 3.. also you are correct about parry > defense but at the time i specced i would rather have had higher avoidance in place of a minute increase to an aoe that doesnt hit hard to begin with... I may actually spec out of it now that surviv is a non issue in POW but at the time with on hit damage effects (pre nerf) the small increase in avoid was worth more to me than the small increase on an already small aoe.
I believe you need 300 or 320 crit for all of EM Skyshrine which you havent even cleared yet according to flames and guildprogress.. can readdorn for more dps or survivability even tho you shouldnt need any since.. its em skyshrine..
Its not even about threat control.. its about dps.. again no aoes in SS even hit hard, the only big damage people will take are fail conditions which can all be aoe blocked or jousted or a script is being messed up.. More hp does less for your raid than 8cb does..
No, you dont need extra hp especially when you could be adorning for crit bonus or other dps stats.. Only hp adorn you should have are on your hat..
You specify in combat.. are you relying on procs for MA or are you somehow getting BC from a dirge? Im guessing you are relying on procs and only getting that extra swing 33% of the time (20s uptime in the course of 1 min) you are taking a HUGE loss in dps. You only need to get your MA to i believe 585 to hit 600 with just a dirge in grp.. to ensure that you are getting 100% uptime on your MA.. that and you shouldnt be taking BC from your ranger if that is what you are doing...
There shouldnt be any procs that you are relying on to hit caps... Procs are bonus and thats it and 99% of the procs in this game that dont include Crit Bonus or potency are terrible and you are not getting the full uptime of the stat that you should be capping..
Im glad for you and your guild but clearly your thought process isnt one that a lot of people that do more content and more dps use.. That and saying you should use taunts instead of CA's even if they give the same amount of threat (only a few) ca's actually do more damage to the mob.

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

Isn't that a fancy verbose way of saying zerker CAs do less damage than other fighters?

Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:

You are wrong about threat transfers.
I would rather put my points in something other than increasing the range of rescue.
I would rather put my points in something other than increasing the duration of reinforcement. The proc on taunt is unnecessary.
I'm not seeing 2 extra points in accel strike allowing me to get in 4 CAs per auto since I'm just fast enough to get in 3, but I'll check it out later.
We are pulling HM mobs in UD and Drunder, and I believe Sev requires 390. In any case, I need 390 CC for what we do. Don't worry, I don't waste resources in getting more crit than I need.
I was spec'd for CB in DoV tree for a long time and honestly I don't notice a diff in my dps since dropping it. I'd rather put those points in my group temp. More hp is always useful, we are going to have to disagree here... but that's fine because you can spec your char however you want.
I'm set up for pure tank defense which is why I play a guard in the first place. My satisfaction in this game comes from trying to be the hardest tank to kill as possible. My priorities involve holding aggro, surviving, and keeping other players alive in that order. The role of dps is among my priorites right above healing. If my guild isn't happy with my dps they can tell me or replace me.
Ranger gets BC, I let a proc (which is almost always up) buff me to cap. If I buff to cap, then procs might as well not even exist. Self buffing to 600 MA will do very little for my dps since I'm over cap in raid anyway. If I do anything to increase my dps, it will be unforging haste on my gear to get some flurry back. Next would be unforging enough MA to be over 600 for that 10% of the time I only have 585.
I've never said I use taunts instead of CAs, in fact I said the opposite. I'm well aware dps > taunts. Only thing I've said regarding taunts is they are worth using, and gave an example of how they can be useful outside of simply adding a little threat.
I have extensively tweaked my character trying many different setups, and spent hours testing and weighing the pros and cons of even the most trivial AA points. My character may be a couple months old, but I have been playing a guard since KoS and raid tanking and off tanking as a guard since RoK. I do not simply read a sticky and setup my char accordingly. I watch my stats in combat, think for myself, and setup my character targetted for the content I do with the raid setup I play with in the roles I play. I am very happy with my setup and my character does everything me and my guild need it to. Every AA was spent with careful consideration, every adornment is on my gear for a reason. My character setup is constantly evolving and improving as gear changes and the content I play changes. I may do things differently than you, but I care about my character's performance just as much as you care about yours.

Ulrichvon wrote:

So with other words you are saying that all other berserker suck and you are awsome? Im not sure what kind of mobs you are tanking but a zerk is not the best tank to lock down adds with. Its funny that you take in 2 singel target tanks to compare with. They both can do it aswell. Our monk tank swarms of adds with out problem.
Tanks should be able to tank everything end of story. And what of my ideas will make berserker as good as MT as a guard? it wont. But it will make them better on ST mobs aswell and work abit more inline with the other aoe tanks.
You can keep saying all you want that you think zerks are fine. But then you have clearly never tanked on one of the other tanks. You are free to think what ever you want tho.

Netty wrote:

I've tanked on pretty much everything but a bruiser, Most of my time is on Guard/Monk, but I have a lot of time on SK/Zerk/Pal.
We can put our monk on swarm adds, and when his dps short terms are up he does fairly well, when the next set comes, its a crap shoot if he'll hold them all vs a full burn, or if one or two peel. Whereas the zerker or sk will almost never lose agro in the same situation.
As I said before, in a pinch we've had the other classes in the role their not best suited for, and still won, but its signifcantly harder with a less guaranteed success rate.
I'll 100% agree with you there is absolutely no need for 'ae tanks' before HM raiding though. But I still think this is more of a content issue than a class issue.

Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

It is easy to test but mods apply before xfers... Not sure where you are getting your information that it is the other way around.
Mkay you wont find much better stuff to put your points in tho..
Your call, having tanked every single mob in the game I would say the reinforce duration is well worth the points spent..
If you are in fact pulling HM mobs in SS then yeah the number 390, em skyshrine (which is shows you guys not having completed, may want to check that) and drunder only require 300-320..
You absolutely will see a dps increase in 8% cb, for the content you are working on you will almost never see a gain from having 4% more max health unless your grp is faceplanting and that is a healer issue.. You can spec your char however you want but certain ways are better and certain things are more fluff than actually benefiting your group and your raid.
DPS is a necessary byproduct of tanking and in turn helps your raid by killing stuff faster and ensuring you are holding threat. I am not sure why you would straight up neglect dps when it helps your raid and your own threat.. My dps on progression and tougher mobs is far from amazing but it doesnt mean im still not trying and helping the raid out.. The faster the mob dies the less i have to worry about timing my stoneskins, gyb, sentry watch, which rescue i need to use next, etc... It is the same thing as healers who refuse to dps and just heal when most healers outside of the MT grp have time in between aoes and adds spawning that is wasted if they arent dps'ing and it is the difference between a fight lasting 4 mins and 5 mins..
You are losing out on an extra melee swing 66% of the time.. The proc on your weapon only has a 20 second uptime in the span of 1 minute.. Just raise your MA by 20% and you dont have to rely on the proc.. It may become next to worthelss (still gives dps and haste) but I would rather have just another worthless proc (again all but a few procs are worthless) than rely on one to have 600ma 100% of the time...
The fact that taunts do about the same TPS as only a few CA's while not doing any of the dps is exactly why taunts suck.. They arent worth using unless its on a fight where i cant dmg the mob or need to rescue mobs back using reinforce without dps'ing.. You can play your character however you want but arguing that taunts are fine when they are anything but is kinda silly and arguing just for the sake of it.

Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:

Transfer values are taken before any mod is applied. IIRC it use to be the other way but they changed it a while back. I can't find the post where it was stated by a red name (Rothgar maybe). You know the forums softwar beign so good and all IDK why I couldn't find it. You can go on thinking its the other way but you'ed be wrong.

ill test it after raid but unless it was changed SF or later it used to be mods before xfer

I agree it did use to be the other way. I can't recall when it changed to save my life though. I kind of want to say when they made all the changes to guards to bring them more inline or maybe it was when they attempted the fighter revamp the 1st time. Shoot it might of been when the bumped the cap up to 100% hate mode. I do know it was changed to help with aggro control though.

well from just some basic testing it looks like they did change it so mods before xfer. So my bad on that one.

It was an easy one to miss if you wasn't involved in all the testing that was going on at the time. It could of not even been posted in a public forum and that could be one reason I can't find it.

i thought it's always been that way; i remember when training dummies came out there was a thread on flames guard board testing moderate on assassins. pretty sure dravngr1 or w/e was involved. anyway... i put xfer and mod on our ranger w np.