February 26 Update Changes

SOE adds optional data. 7 pages of raging and putdowns ensue.

Cronqar,

Your post is self-contradictory. On one hand you say that Guild Achievements should require all 24 players to be from 1 guild to get credit. On the other hand, you criticize people for bashing Raid Alliances.

Nope, I am just making the difference between Guild Achievement on a raidlevel and RaidAlliances/Raidforces with their raid progress what seems to have gotten confused here. If you look at Windstalkers original announcement it talks about Guild Achievement. The rest of us just read Raid Progress into it.

Nowhere in this post does it mention guildprogress.com. I'm not a complete fool though, I realize this is getting put in place because that site went away but it's not going to replace that site. It'll make it a little easier for a replacement site to verify some kills, but that's about as good as it's going to get when it comes to replacing guildprogress.com. The fact that alliances won't be represented requires additional ways of verifying kills which it looks like is already planned by the EQ-Raiders site.

That being said, I hope they expand this. Otherwise, this is Guild Raid Achievements.

Character Achievements currently have these categories:

General, Live Events, Exploration, Quests, Dungeons, Raids, Battlegrounds, PvP, Tradeskills, Dungeon Maker and Triumphs.

Most of these most likely don't make much sense from a guild perspective but I would think Dungeons, Battlegrounds, PvP and Triumphs might make sense to add. Certainly Dungeons.

It it's an achievement for a character to kill the boss of a heroic zone, it should also be a guild achievement to kill the same boss with the right percentage of players. Hopefully this will be added when they have some time.

BTW, in an effort to get the rage out ahead of time, here are some things to think about with this new feature.

There is no way it's going to contain useful data for leader boards when it launches about anything that was in game prior to it's launch. Here's why:

1. You KNOW they aren't going to pour through all the logs to find out all the times raid mob X was killed, then cross reference that with who was in the raid, then cross reference that with what guild they were in at the time of the kill to determine which guilds should have the achievement on which date.
2. Because of #1, any achievements for mobs that were killable in game prior to this feature going live will only be useful as a Yes/No, not as a time stamp of when a guild first killed a mob. Whoever kills it first after the servers come back up will be listed as having killed it first, even if another guild really killed it first two months ago.
3. Because of #1 and #2, this data will only be useful for leader board purposes for mobs that are added at the same time or after this feature goes live.

Even though I'm sure someone will start a new thread once it launches to complain about what I've written above, I figured I'd post this to get everyone thinking about this ahead of time. For future kills, this will be good. For current ones, this will be of no use to leader boards and will actually show wrong data.

I'm sure everyone will be mature enough to understand this.






HAHHAHAHAHAHHA... sorry...laughing so hard I'm crying...

This system + any decent tracking site will instantly outclass guildprogress.com. If only because the kills have an 'official' confirmation and any filing of disputes will be impossible for said kills. Guildprogress.com was more or less useless before it came down because of false kill reports and disputes, no doubt at least part of the reason why it came down.

I agree in that I doubt it will track past kills with any sort of accuracy but all we have for that right now is posts on the other forums.

our guild lists as casual raid and we host teh alliance by our guild's name. While we are starting to get enough from our own guild to field 2 maybe 2 1/2 groups we do have our alliance members who are from other guilds that are steayd. Another question comes to mind, some of us have toons in other guilds that are needed for the raid that we switch out to, how's that going to work out since it is a guild member who is just on an alt that night?

I am basing my claim of the 18 part guild getting credit based on majority rules. Unfortunately in terms of "raid progression", Raid-Alliances are on the short end of the stick in the fact that it is hard to decide using code which guild should get credit. As it was pointed out though you can't allow a separate guild to have credit simply because they had 1 member in a raid with another guild.

You will still earn personal achievements for being with other guilds. You won't earn achievements for your guild unless you have a majority of your guild. Once again keep in mind I am speaking from speculation I do not have any insider information on this system. I would assume "Raid" achievements for guilds require a majority participation. However non-raid achievements that may be shared with guilds I am unsure of how many you would need to gain the Guild Achievement for it or even if they are separating Raid and Non-Raid achievements.

One goal of this with the help of Mecrab's "Raid Hub" the website EQ-Raiders.Com is under construction still but has statistics for current CoE progression. We will have to wait and see how things go.

TLDR:
- You will probably not earn Guild Achievements for being on an alt in another Guild.
- You probably will need more than 60% of a Guild present to earn achievements.
- Raid Alliances will be very hard to accurately track as giving achievements for all guilds involved is inaccurate as that 1 guild did not do it without the help of 1 or 2 other guilds.
- Pick-Up style raids most likely will not earn achievements due to being made up of 4 or more guilds commonly.

I do hope some of my speculations have helped clarify what I meant in my previous post and perhaps have granted some insight on how this new achievement system may work. I have looked at EQ-Raiders.com and certainly it is clean and easy to navigate if you are only viewing. I have yet to register my email though so I cannot speak for the submission part. Currently it is under maintenance as some guilds are missing including Shoukun and Attritionx (sorry if I misspelled either of your guilds names). I wish whoever is running EQ-Raiders.com a good success with his website.

You see correlation where there is none.

In other words, my having 50k hp and 321 cc is irrelevant to whether the Guild Achievements should be reserved for the top ten guilds ww. That is the statement that you need to support with proof before you can convince either the player base or the dev team that it should be restricted only to those few among the many guilds across all the servers.

Of course, maybe you don't understand that ad hominem (of course, in this case it might be considered ad hominem virtualis) attacks do not comprise valid arguments.

I guess the point that I'm trying to get across to you, in hopes that you are intelligent enough to understand (despite the impression to the contrary that your posts give), is that what might be good for an extremely small percentage of the game isn't necessarily what is good for the entire game. Predominately, the people who really care about who is in the top ten guilds are the people in the top 11-15. Although there are some exceptions, a majority (of the rest of the hundreds of thousands of people that play the game) don't care; they just want an achievement when they accomplish the required task(s) - in the case of a given raid named, killing that raid named with whatever percentage of guild members (be it 100%, 75%, 66%, 50%, or whatever) that SOE dictates.

tl;dr - A personal attack is not supporting facts; guild achievements (judging from the purpose announced) aren't meant to be a different type of ****** to wave - they are just to record accomplishment of given requirements.

You are probably right there. There are possible solutions to that though, depending on what data is where and at what point it is archived. I have every log of everything on all my toons from 2005 forward.

(1361137099) [Sun Feb 17 16:38:19 2013]

The number on the left represents the # of seconds since 1/1/1970 an interface could be provided for the date of a kill to be entered by the guild members of when they killed X name for the first time, the lookup on this would be lightning fast. When the minimum required number of guild members entered the date which could immediately be checked that they were in the guild at that time from the existing player data feed the date could be updated.

For existing mobs in the game they are going to have to weight very little if any at all the first kill bonus and subsequent point reductions. Mobs that enter the game after this goes live can award these bonuses without awarding the first kill to a guild that didn't actually kill it first. I think it is great that they are adding this, but if this is a reaction to guild progress and is being built from an empty framework, I don't see any way that it can be reliable and properly functioning.

Stop getting trolled by balbasur. Just ignore him.

Actually made me Lol when I thought about this. Glad it'll be useful for tracking 3 mobs in Dreadcutter x4 though!

Wonder if I can persuade my Guildleader to rename our guild to something comical and WW1st a load of EM stuff for guild achievement tracking!

I am going to ww1st yael np

And, in other news...

"Spiritstones from Chains of Eternity now have 50 levels"

I must overlooked that, somehow.... where was that mentioned? oX

Patch notes.

The system IS unfair for guild alliances for all the reasons people allready have written down. That is a fact.
But instead of whining about the unfairness of the system, I think a suggestion how to fix this might be in order.
So here is mine :

MAKE ALLIANCES OFFICIAL !
It's really nothing unheard off. Other games use it and it works very good.
I don't know how hard it is to implement that technicaly, but a simple Alliance tab for a guild should not be so hard.

An alliance should work exactly like a guild, but instead of inviting players you invite guilds. You can get another tag that player X is part of guild Y and part of the Z alliance.

Making it official will solve ALL the problems mentioned in the previous 7 pages of this thread, not to mention that it will encourage smaller guilds to "group" up for a common goal.

EQ2, as it is now, is made 90% of veterans that play the game for 4+ years. They have friends, and not many are willing to say goodbye to a friend who maybe do not raid but still group etc.

If they make an achievement for guilds AND a mirror achievement for alliances, then the matter is solved. Each with their own.
Also the guild achievement should be 100% guild members and not 60% or 40% or 56%.

The system is flawed to the core as you can have situations where you have 12 ppl from one guild and 12 ppl from another killing a raid mob. The result : None will get the achievement, even if the effort was from both guilds in an equal way.

Not to mention the fact that if you have an active raid force of 3 groups and, just to get the achievment, you zone in 6 alts at the entrance that do nothing, apart from making up the numbers.

So K.I.S.S. Make alliances official !

just put 2/3s of the alliance in 1 guild? I mean they are an alliance...why does it matter what guild they are in?

Uhm, just blind guess.... a alliance can consist of more then 2-3 guilds? Secondly, perhaps you don´t want to leave you´re beloved guild? Thats why there are alliances for.... if not, you have to have to join a raidguild....

Yes it does. I can talk about our alliance on SP. We are raiding for 6+ years with ppl from 2-3 other guilds, who are in their guild for more than 6 years. Each guild has it's own identity and a lot of ppl don't want to give up on that.
If it didn't matter to them in which guild they are in, then no alliances would exist, would they ?
And believe me, more than half of the raiding guilds on SP are NOT guild-only raiding forces