I have seen a lot post related to Rangers been DPS'd out by other classes including Brawlers, rogues and casters. I have seen PARSE data reflecting this information. (Of course this assuming that the person who PARSE didnt nick pick the ones that makes him look the worst or altered his output to reflect a lower DPS than normal) Here is my question: Shouldnt some encounters be harder for a typical T1DPS to score top DPS than others. For example: Some classes do more specific type of damage like: crushing, slashing, piercing etc. This combined with the monster resistance has to affect the overall DPS result. Am I correct or incorrect? I see the DPS rank issue similar to the tanking changes that happened on LU13. The guardians who where the rangers of tanking were changed to be a good tank, but not the prefered tank for all type of encounters. For some encounters paladins, who have more utility than guardian can be the prefered tank. For other maybe a berserker, who does more DPS than a guardian can be the prefered tank. What I am trying to say guys, is that maybe now there is no actual T1 DPS. Like there is no T1 TANK. By no means I am trying to say that guys dont have issues. I a lot classes do have some minor issues, but I dont think that the class is totally broken. Good luck
parsing has inherant problems that will never be solved. a lot of times parses look bad because of situation or mob fought. that is why i pay no attention to them. the results are always inacurate.
Let me start by saying that I totally respect your opinion. And by no means is this intended to be a flame or start anyone else flaming you. I dont see how there can be no "actual T1 DPS". DPS is in relation to all classes not just the damage dealing classes such as rangers. There are no T1 tanks because all tanks should be able to excel at...tanking. Other classes dont have taunts so tanks are tanks. Healers are all the same tier in healing as that is their funciton. So, in my opinion there HAS to be a T1, a T2, T3...since all classes do damage. The true damage dealing classes such as rangers assassins sorcerers and such should all be in a level well beyond tanks, utility, and healers. So, no...while I respect your opinion, I dont agree at all....there is and always will be levels of damage dealt, simply because it is the one thing that is common to all classes. Peace Health and Happiness Saihung
Sai, while I completely respect your opinion, I also happen to agree with you. BUT after reading your last two posts I MUST ask... are you on lithium???
lmao...umm...not anymore No...now I have to go back and see...I am very very tired right now...isnt that a computer thing anyway...a lithium processor? or star trek related...lithium crystals in the warp drive engine doodad.... I have driven over 1k miles since Monday....too tired to even think...dont read any more of my posts you..you.. ah hell...good night Saihung ***edited for her pleasure*** I dont think I have ever sounded more off kilter than the last three posts...I think you may have something Teksun Message Edited by Saihung23 on 04-05-200605:03 PM
Yeah! I didnt meant that all classes should do the same DPS (meaning fighters and scouts) I was talking between the DPS classes anyways. I meant that assassins, rangers, warlocks, wizzies should be able to out do each other depends on the encounter. Sometimes Monk or bruisers may outdo some of these classes since the mosnter was succeptible to crushing. I hop eyou gusy understand what I am trying to meant
Yes, assassins/rangers/wiz and warlock should be able to out do each others depending on the situation and on the players skills, that been said, you have to keep in mind some class like ranger dont have any way to directly increase the damage output on a single target/group like assassins,warlock and wiz Assassin have apply poison, single target proc, can only be used on non-predators/rogues classes in group Wiz/warlock both have single target proc, can be used on anyone in the group Wiz/warlock both have damage shield, can be used on anyone in the raid Wiz buff STR/INT groupwide and elementals resists groupwide Warlock buff ministration/subjuration and conjuration (?) (buff spells usage, less fizzle/resist on spellcasting tech) groupwide and noxious resists groupwide. Now all the damage done using single target proc, damage shield, group buff is assigned to the target and not to the caster but without the caster the damage doesnt exist. Now thats doesnt mean rangers should have more direct dps than the 3 others classes, rangers dps is almost non-situational already. my dps dont change a whole lot if i have to joust or not (compared to an assassin) and my dps dont change a whole lot if the mob is resistant to fire/ice/poison/disease (compared to a sorcerers). IMO T1 dps classes are close to be balanced, Warlock and ranger need minor tweak, aggro for warlock, fixing triple volley and precise shot for ranger. Monk and bruiser are T3 dps and should not come close to T1 in most situation, they are tank first not dps, and no t1 dps come close to tank like a brawler (the same apply to the T4 Zerker). T2 dps should be able to parse close or over t1 depending of the situation but thats shouldnt be the norm (ie: summoner king of dps atm)
And for those people who wonder why Rangers whine/comment so much about DPS.. It's the only thing we really do. Same with assassins & sorcerors. So it's very important to us. If you play a swashie and don't do the best possible dps, it's no big deal because you bring other things to the table. Rangers don't. There's something very weird with EQ2 right now in that the non-dps-only classes are outgoing the dps-only classes on a regular basis. Truly, we would be better off playing the other classes. It's not what I want to do, but there you go. Assassins may be the only one that is where they should be of us four, and even they have to do things like pay for arrows & poisons.
From my view as someone who plays a lot solo its quite simple .. it can't be correct that a Ranger has to fight 50-70% of a solo mobs life down using melee attacks. And yeah .. i now normally use my stealth attacks after cheap shot like i did in my early 20s because they do more damage then most bow attacks you normally can use in that time :smileyindifferent:
Refreshed! Nothing like 12 hours sleep to get you going I see what you are saying...like there isnt a by far best healer, or best tank (debatable...but I wont), there should not be a DPS class that always out does the other DPS classes like Rangers were before the proc bug fix. I agree. Depending upon the situation, we dps classes should be comparable in most, but sometimes a mob will be resistant to piercing in which case a Wizard will blow the thing up...or vice versus. Saihung
I'm a monk (with a ranger alt :smileyvery-happy: ) and I want to know how the heck a brawler could out DPS a ranger.... seriously. I've tried many a times and the only possible explanation I could think of is the Ranger was afk or on the phone or 2 boxing lol. Seems fairly unlikely from my point of view Message Edited by Tamo on 04-07-200608:58 AM
Sure, everyone in their right mind accepts that assassins, warlocks, rangers, and wizards should periodically overlap each other, and that there will even be times when T2 DPS classes overlap with T1. There are a huge number of factors that come into play in any one battle, and depending how the chips fall, the T1 class(es) won't always be on top. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. What's... disturbing, for lack of a better word, is the frequency with which T2 and T3 classes are exceeding T1 classes. Yeah, maybe the preds or sorcs are slacking in those encounters - you can't know unless you were playing one of them - but it seems to be happening with more regularity than some of us are comfortable with. At that rate, I gotta agree with a previous poster - we might as well all be playing conjs, swashes, brigs, necros, or bruisers if they bring comparable DPS *and* mezzing / debuffing / taunting / feign dead / fear / group invis / <insert utility here>.
Your average brawler is not going to be better than a good ranger. I think at the higher levels it happens a lot more, where brawlers beat Rangers. I've seen it many times. For the most part, I think they can get a bit above our level, not beat it by 3x like a summoner, but that's still not right. I haven't grouped with too many brigands 60+ yet so I can't report on that situation much. In particular, I remember grouping once with a bruiser, who was about the same level and gear, and he was above me on parses 80% of the time. These are not T2 classes but T3.
When i parsed my Level 56 Monk in Silent City even in offensive Stance and i was not tanking, he seldom hit more then 300 DPS .. ok since i have too much character this char has only Adept 1 styles and normal Legenadary T6 Gear .. however i can't see that even with all on Adept 3 that i make the damage that other sometimes post with my monk My Ranger pre LU#20 was doing 600-900 normally in that area with the same group .. spikes from 1000-1300 if storm of arrows hit groups with downgrades that instantly died My nornal DPS with my Conjurer in a Group is around 500 .. i really often wonder if some parser just blow up some number extremly .. or if most people on the boards are really so ub0r that the constanly can do 3 times the damage then my characters and all the people i normally play with.
I like this thread, on the sole reason that everyone is relatively sane and that this thread hasn't turned into a flamewar. But I'm sure someone is going to come in and change all that. But before anyone does, I would like to say I agree with what you all are saying. I have a 69 ranger along with 5 other alts who are all scouts (56 dirge, 35 swashy, 27 brig, 27 assassin (won't let me type the short form), 18 troub). One of the primary reason of having these 5 other alts is I wanted to know what a ranger is supposed to be in SOE's mind by comparing them to the other 5 scouts. So in response to the OP, ok, maybe putting Tiers in terms of dps isn't such a great idea. But along the lines of Saihung, rangers don't really have anything else to offer out there. Now this is from my own observation, but assassins are more or less the same to rangers when you start comparing to brigands/swashies. My guild's raid leader left our guild a while back to play on another server. We got an excellent replacement for raid leader. But the biggest lost was that he was a brigand. We're trying our best to fill that role since no other classes can debuff as well as brigand and it made a HUGE difference. I think if one looks carefully at our spell lines, one of the things SOE did at the earlier combat change was to make us rangers more or less pure dps. A few of our spells that had debuffs, had their debuff component removed. I was actually happy seeing this, thinking that SOE decided to make us less of a utility, which is what I prefer in a ranger. But I think now, the supposed Tier 2 dps classes (summoners and rogues) have their utility spells help their dps be Tier 1 like. My guild leader says, he doesn't like people complaining about the overpowered-ness of the conjurers/necs (mostly conjs). He says he likes it this way, and have plans to use them accordingly. For the sake of the guild, I'd have to agree with them. We have a few conjurers and they rock. But at the same time, I'm swallowing my ranger pride and "for the sake of the guild" tell them to take the conjurer instead of me for dps. Not only, they do good dps, they're also versatile (meaning they can take care of mano-a-mano dps, or burn'em down dps). Please don't read this as a flame towards rogues and summoners. As long as it is the status quo, our raiding situation doesn't have to change much, and I can go to succesful raids and get a chance at good loot. So I find other ways to be happy =) Message Edited by TazPup on 04-07-200605:16 PM Message Edited by TazPup on 04-07-200605:18 PM
Beldin In regards to you not beleving that rangers have to melee 50-70% of a melee mobs life down I would tend to agree with you. However I would say during solo we probably spend 50-70% of our time meleeing a mobs life down. I hope this distinction makes sense. I mean that although on solo mobs I am able to sometimes get some massive damage in on a mob before it gets to me, my melee attacks have such low dps that i maybe able to get a mob down to around 50% health by the time it closes but i do pathetic damage once that happens, so that i spend an disproportionate time using melee techniques. Granted I can probably use only ranged CA's on a single solo mob if i start with all my CA's up, but that rearely happens in a long term solo situation unless i go AFK, or I got an add and have to wait for my health to recover. To let you know, I am at 51, have pretty much all legendary gear, adept1s and IIIs for my ca's no master Is and use summoned arrows. I didn't join a single group from level 27 to 50, so you can say I solo a lot.
I didn't say i don't believe it .. i know it is the fact now .. what i mean is that i my opinion that is simply not what i expect from a Ranger .. and that its no fun anymore for me to play my Ranger that way My Ranger is 63 btw. and i also played 90% of that solo.
Brigands aren't outdamaging you.... The very high point of a Brigand damage may overlap your low point... You are a healthy tier in damage above Brigands and given that you regard your damage as broken sub Tier 1 that gives you an idea of where Brigands come in the stack of T1 and T2 damage dealers. Parses with Brigands and Rangers in group will show the Ranger doing consistently 25-50% more damage than a Brigand, spiking up to 75% more damage than the Brigand. Brigands do not do comparable dps to conjs, necros, assassins or rangers. At the high level Brigands do not do comparable damage to a wis specced swashie. It is quite possible (though not necessarily consistent) for brawlers and Monks to move ahead of Brigand damage. In AE appropriate encounters, Berserkers will also do more damage than a Brigand. While Brigands can put out decent numbers in raids where AE avoidance is a primary factor, they're not putting out the numbers they were in comparison with the other classes... their ability to do so isn't as consistent as AR got nerfed... and so are Rangers able to put out good numbers in these situations. You need to be really careful who you're tarring with that brush of yours. Just because Brigands aren't whining up a storm like a Ranger over the fact that every other class in their tier (2) is outdamaging them at high levels by 50-200% doesn't mean it's not the case. When I logged off tonight, it was leaving behind 2 other Brigands logged on the server. One or two times I've logged off as the last Brigand leaving no Brigands logged on (not often at all, but it has happend).... how about you leave a couple of us around after you've done talking up your Wizard style nerfathon.... if we're so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good, how come we're the least played class? If we're so overpowered where's the rest of us... hmmm, maybe we're not? Say Swashbuckler when you mean Swashbuckler, and Brigand when you mean Brigand.... don't talk about high level Rogue damage, because there is no such thing as high level Rogue damage. There's high level Swashbuckler damage and there's high level Brigand damage. They're different. The classes are different. Their skills are different. They play differently. The results of their play are not the same. I'm happy with my Brigand, and enjoy playing him... If playing a Ranger isn't fun for you... don't (roll a Brigand I hear they're really uber).... Brigands were notably absent in the whole "nerf Rangers campaign"... I don't appreciate you jeapordising my fun because you're unhappy. If I'm touchy on the subject it's because we had valleyboy in the gameplay forum with "Rogues are overpowered".
Carnagh you dont play yer brigand to its full potential that is obvious our guild has some who do they out dps me they average 800+ dps per encounter our monks do 800 - 1200 i macro my attacks to the point where all of my spells are on refresh alot of the time, im pushing my dps as hard as i can. i can understand you being a little nervous about rangers saying that brigs are out dpsing rangers . Wizzards did alot of the same to rangers . But rangers are underpowered in dps right now . Brigands do more dps than rangers if they are good with their char . ya cant argue it man ... it's just a fact ... unless you wanna take it up with the log files ? Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on 04-09-200612:49 AM
OK, bust out the log files where the Brigands are outdamaging Rangers... I'd like to see these parses.... I'd very much like to take it up with the log files.
