Greetings everyone, I have been a big proponent of the Stamina Line since the AP's came into existance. I immediately saw the potential and after putting the points into the line I was very pleased with what I experienced. Last night, for example, while on a Lyceum Raid, I was consitently in the top 5 on the parser, consistently doing over 1k dps sustained throughout the raid. For a Plate tank I think that is incredible, and this using a 1hander (of course that is using everything but the kitchen sink ie open wounds, destruction, jugernaught, and a dirge in group for Cacophony). Anyway, I just got a new Tower Shield and it was too tempting to pass up, so I am seriously considering respecing. Just currious, of the non Stamina line Berserkers, what is your personal preferance on lines, do you see any merrit at all in taking the ultimate in any of the lines (only one I would consider is Wis ultimate, but even with its utility, I still can't see justifying putting 8 points into it). My feeling on the matter is I will definately stick with Wis 4-4-8-8 for the DPS and Mit...but what to do with the other 24 points? I have considered going Int, Agi, or Str..but not sure which...so just post what your personal choice was and why, and help me out please... Thanks, Syrius Silverblade 70/50 Berserker Venekor Server
same position here, started off building the wis line when KoS was released then switchd to stam line when i had enough AA's for double attack ditched the stam line about a month ago... personal preference really. recommend str line to max crits which works on auto attack and CA's, i think any line is viable but imo haste is far too easy to cap for now to make the int line of any real use. i like wis and str lines myself for the mit and crits.... but then again my zerker is an alt that dosnt raid nor do i play on a pvp server so take that for what its worth
I just recently spec'd out of sta line myself. I have loved the dps of the sta line, but I hated using a pansy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] little buckler, mainly for roleplay reasons =p I went 4/4/8/8 str and 4/4//8/8 wis with my one xtra point in sta since I don't hit cap yet usually. Seems to be workign pretty good for me, sitting in def stance and using Shadow Axe and Qeynos Guard I was avging almost 700dps (the only dps buff I had in the grp was Inquisitor and fury agitate). If I switched to dw using wurmslayer and essensia I was avging mid 800's dps. The dps loss hurt, but the Qeynos Guard is just such a sexy shield I couldn't resist using it, and I think that the 10% hate gain of the str line will make up for it (hopefully).
20% more dps (from sta line) > 10% hate but the added crits on everything + 10% hate is probably pretty close. I was in strength line for max hate and max crits and didn't hold aggro quite as well as I do now in the stamina line (comparing using the same group/raid setups). I rarely lose aggro any way, but figured I might as well do about 20% more damage and lose the 3-4% avoidance, even more so since avoidance is kinda broke right now anyway. They are suppose to be fixing avoidance in the expansion, so I may leave stamina line to try it.
I do miss the dps, but I wouldn't say its 20% dps differance, I would say maybe 10. And I also went from using the Archaic buckler to usign the Qeynos guard and it was a huge stat differance. I gained about 7 or 8% avoidance, a lot of hp's, some mit, plus the just awesome proc on the Qeynos guard that I swear has more than mearly 5% chance to proc. I actually find it easier now to solo the nest instance than it was on sta line because of the defensive differance, the dps loss doesn't hurt all that bad. On a side note, since we are talking about aggro, does the hate buff from a coercer and from a dirge stack? I have heard both ways and would just like to hear another opinion.
STA line has its merits. ... Moving on lol, for a non STA build, the WIS line is awesome, i would recommend something like: 4-4-4-8 WIS (mit bonus is big) 4-4-4 STR (sick crit dmg with rampage + open wounds, especially if your gonna find a nice fabled axe) (Other than the above, anything else has its uses, however the next line is nice if you want a bit more DPS, + if your on a pvp server the parry is great.) 4-4-4-5 INT (Haste + Parry, also will slightly increase your proc effects... not really that noticable) AA Builds truly are a unique thing though, everyone will post a different opinion, and it depends entirely on what gear you have, and what classes your spending most of your time with. I play on PvP servers now more than blue servers and things like parry are crucial... yet on a blue server i wouldnt touch it.
Ok, an update.. Prior to my gaining the fabled tower shield off of Vilucidae I was sitting at 4.7k Mit, and right around 45% avoidance self buffed. Stam 4-5-8-8, Wis 4-4-8-8. This gave me double attack, 19% DPS mod, and I was very happy with my dps, but the whole point was to increase my survivablity for raiding. I have Frostwrath, fabled 1handed axe 77ish DR. I switched up to an interesting build, trying to maximize my dps as much as possible. I went Wis 4-4-8-8, Str 4-4-8-4, Int 4-1 This gave me 19% dps, 22% crit, and when sword equiped 22% haste on top of Rage procs which is master 2, for sustained in combat 47% dps, 22% crit, 50% haste(with 2handed sword equiped) for dpsing when not tanking. I took a major hit to my dps with this build, using all the tricks I had used prior ie open wounds, destruction, jugernaught. No longer showing up near the top of the parser. When tanking my best 1hander is frostwrath, which is an axe, so I lose the 22% haste from Int line. Needless to say dps is lessened further. My mit is now better, 4789, and avoidance self buffed is around 52%...but I am questioning whether or not it was worth giving up all that dps for an additional 7% avoidance, and about 86 mit. The lack of a Fabled Buckler in T7 had me kind of down, the best choice available to me being Ajzeroths guard (or however its spelled) and it was elussive to me, having not gotten it in over 25 trips to HoF... was using Thexian Dinner plate from Nek tribulation... I will wait to see if I can get a fabled 2handed Sword to improve dps further, and also interested to see how things change with EoF with avoidance and mit changes...so far I am not impressed with the choice I made. There was alot of pressure from peers regarding Buckler, and survivablity. I had the chance to Tank Gorenaire last night though, or at least be in the rotation of tanks on her...(for those not familiar with that encounter, she teleports the person at the top of her list to a random location every 45 seconds or so, so a few people end up tanking her through the encounter) and I can say I was definately impressed at the lack of damage I was taking in the fight. Jury is still out, but I will update this as I continue to change my mind on the subject. Syrius Silverblade 70/50 Berserker Venekor Server
I think the main downside to this switch is that the Tower shield has no AA associated with it. So you are going from a buckler AA to tower and no AA. What i mean is, you can have the buckler AA and put on a tower shield, and your defensive capabilities would be the same as if you didnt have the buckler AA and put on the tower shield. Meaning that you can keep you AAs in the buckler line, do uber DPS and if the encounter really calls for it, strap on that tower shield and get just as much benefit from it defensively. I think that if there were a Tower Shield AA line that increased defence, this would be a good tradeoff, as it stands now, I don't see any reason to take AAs out of the buckler line. Ask yourself, in what % of encounters would I prefer +6% avoid and +60mit over +200dps? (There is no right answer btw, depends on playstyle).
I agree. The AAs are way too one sided. With the current setup you can't stack defensive AAs. In order to gain an offensive ability in most lines you have to spend 5-9 points. To gain a defensive one you need 13! So you can not stack defense AAs as much as you can with offense. I don't know if SOE did some research and the biggest complaint by tanks was the lack of DPS. Or they are trying to make the game harder by reducing the amount of defense in the game since I've heard stories of tanks taking on end game epics with a buckler and mixed treasures/master/fabled/legendary gear. If thats the case your probably not going to see SOE boosting defense anytime in the future. I smell a MIT/DEF nerf Message Edited by tvieson on 10-17-2006 10:50 AM
plenty of raid tanks tank "end-game" epics with a buckler. This in my experience raiding, not "story". I'm sure the MT zerkers around this forum will say as much Myself (level 70 - STR, STA, WIS 4/4/8) I use the Villu shield to tank the harder mobs sometimes. Why? Because my armor is not top end. If i had top end mitigation gear, I dont think i would ever use the tower.
Its not a story. Before I respec'd I have tanked everything but chel and teh matron with my buckler. And the dev's have already posted that mit is being nerfed in the expansion I thought about not changing out of the buckler spec and just swapping in the tower shield when it was needed, but the problem with that is the hate loss. I would want to at least have 4/4/8/8 sta and 4/4/4/8 wis, but then I don't have enough points to hit the 10% hate gain in str. So all of my aggro would be tied in with my buckler, if I swapped that out I would have nothing to help boost my aggro from the really bad hit it just took. Thats why I respec'd totally
well, of course all these lines has their uses. And unless you havent noticed yet, everything which opts you to makes some choices, gives ~ the same benefits in the end? This is the SOE policy i guess, why? To make ppl not whine so much about "this line sucks compared to this line" Yah, it might seem that some AA lines do indeed suck compared to some other, but in certain situations etc, they are pretty well balanced out. And if they arent, they will be. So, in the end, its a matter of personal reference what you wanna do, you wont loose/gain a significant amount by building some "odd" combos... unless you put all your AA:s to just stats (maybe) ++Xan Message Edited by xandez on 10-18-2006 10:23 AM
As a zerker dps is everything for hate gain. You will find that you wont be able to hold agro without the double attack maxed out as well. And from personal experience (Having pritty much all the top end 2h in game) the only 2h that comes anywhere close matching a 1h + Buckler is the Jade Inlaid Crescent Axe... Even then it struggles to match or exceed a Shadowaxe + buckler/ Qeynos Qilij + buckler combo! DONT loose the buckler line, you will nerf your tanking ability AND your dps. Many say it sucks but thats the way it is... Guardians perhaps are less reliant on the buckler because they have more taunts and agro managment spells then us. Its critical to get your DPS high for raids esp. for tanking, jus look at openwounds/destruction they are our AoE argro managment and there is no threat assoc with them. Insolent Gibe is pathetic, guardians get (@ m1) get a taunt proc has 50% chance to proc 478 threat, the Insolent Gibe master one is 50% chance to proc 570 (i think) and it only lasts 34secs!!! + They get a AoE taunt./.. though i think the AoE on IG is better. With a SK Death March, Caco of Blades + haste buffs, i reached 2,7k in parse in DT. Mind you it was the perfect group setup... And i have tanked Tarinax, Matron, Vil, Gor, Talon, Harla, Vene etc with T7 fabled/legendary.. its no myth!! Its the skill of all the players to a certain extent that allow you to do this. I say to a certain extent because some encounters u need a specific stat buffed and if u got [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e gear u have to nerf ur other stats So basically, atm mitigation is uber (till eof) and dps from buckler is uberest dps/hate gain (till eof) so if you wanna have the best tank AA setup unfortunately there is only one really viable option: Wis 4,4,8,8 Sta: 4,4,8,8. It dont mean u have to use it, jus means life will be a bit more easier for you when ya tank.... This i feel SoE will address in EoF with new AAlines/Items/Equipment/Cap increase. Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw
Maintaining hate while tanking has not been a problem... I parsed in a single group in HoF yesterday and it was similar to what I had experienced prior to the change, so I don't think I am hating the respec so much anymore. I don't disagree that mit is king, but the issue with what your saying about the AA builds is if all things are equal. That was the issue, I stood to gain Mit from using the fabled Tower, so I went with it, (show me a fabled buckler in T7, or any buckler that gives 144 mit to slash, crush, pierce and I will switch back to sta line) and I couldn't see any sense in completely gimping my dps by sticking with Sta line if I wasn't using the buckler.. Wis and Str are a fine combo of AP's...crits and dps mod have been fine so far. Out dpsing everyone in my group with a wiz, swash, and ranger in group was a definite plus.... Syrius
Plenty of Zerkers raid tank with bucklers(and Gaurdians too!), if you actually think about it, Gaurdians only out do the Berserker when it comes ot long sustained fights and some boss battles. I did this with my AA's --> Sta: 4-8-8-1 Wis: 4-8-8-8 The reason being is that the Buckler Reversal skill actually procs more often than it says it does. About once every 20 seconds or so, and while on a raid you dont get hit every second of the fight, plus you already have enough avoidance form others in your group and if you have master stances and buffs, your avoidance is already high enough. Technically I would triple attack every 20 seconds or so, this helps me hold aggro, along with the AA DPS buff and Double Attack I can actually just taunt once or twice during a fight and just melee the rest of the way rarely using skills. The Mitigation Debuff from the Wisdom line is incredibly useful for raiding, when its mixed in with dispatch, your talking over 4.5k mitigation knocked off the mob, at 70 with the Belly Smash skill maxed out, it takes off 1575 mitigation, rendering most mages almost naked as well!
umm, have you actually raided in T7? Because belly smash requires the mob to be knocked down to use it, and epics are immune to almost every knockdown ability, and even if the mob *does* get knocked down, half the time it doesn't do the animation so you would never know it anyways...
"That was the issue, I stood to gain Mit from using the fabled Tower, so I went with it, (show me a fabled buckler in T7, or any buckler that gives 144 mit to slash, crush, pierce and I will switch back to sta line) and I couldn't see any sense in completely gimping my dps by sticking with Sta line if I wasn't using the buckler.." archaic buckler is your draconic/claymore/viculade shield equivilent. it does a few resists(200, and some 400) 80hp/pow, and 72/72/72 i think or something. well yea it's not 144 mit, but it's your best equivilent, and the best buckler in game for sta atm. Easy hos trash item to get, just bid a bit more dkp over a few priests(they won't want it anyway, most get claymore rewards or FT 19gear, lol). Or if you know your fighting a pure slashing epic, switch over to ironplate w/ the 140to slash.
Im not entirely sure im following you in that post. What was ur change u experienced? what was your previous AA setup and ur current? And dps in a group is very different to dps in a raid... i have parsed 3/4k in a group before. And what i say about hate is top end gaming, when you have a well equiped raid force behind you (in terms of masters and experience) you need every bit of hate you can get yourself coz the group setup might not always be the greatest for you. If you want true dps with any 1hander weapon go wis 4,4,8 sta 4,4,8 str 4,4,8 You loose the 312 to miti and the aoe avoidance but you parse like an A bomb on speed!! In a **** group with me and just a healer.. was a templar... i was still parsing 1 - 1.5k+ with no buffs but my own for dps in that aa setup. Not quit sure if this addressed what ur saying conj.... And Gortesh buckler reversal DEFINANTLY does NOT proc more then every 30+ seconds or so on a single target. Its confirmed in parses and in combat tab i have run. What does happen however is that it does somtimes proc on other mobs that are attacking you, but that mob will still have to wait 30 seconds before a dodge/miss/parry will cause buckler reversal to proc again. And imo, the 19% dps you get from the wis aa line is worth more then the buckler reversal esp. if you have a good 1hander weapon. With shadowaxe i hit + double attack in raids with at on average 800-1k and with crits up to 1.8k! Ands thats jus shadow axe which is **** compared to planar axe of destruction + the one that drops of matron. Vladnor The Berserk 70 Berserker Unity Splitpaw Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on 10-21-2006 05:32 AM
Ok Vladnor, I went through all of my prior specs in the OP and subsequent posts, so I guess I figured I didn't have to repeat the original spec, and was just continuing the commentary as I ventured through the experiment. I agree with you, the absolute best dps spec has to be: wis 4,4,8 sta 4,4,8 str 4,4,8 No question, only thing I wonder is with that spec, can you survive any T7 fight against even or higher con creatures? If I wanted to be a swashy/brigand I would of gone there from character creation...the idea is to tank, and still do reasonable dps... I also agree that dps is completely different in group vs raid, but as I said, I parsed similar in a single group in HoF as I had prior to the respec....if you scroll up a bit you will see my description of my raid parse experience after respec...and how I was a bit disapointed in what I found. Lastly, being on Venekor, we don't have that many guilds that have even done more than gain access to DT, let alone clear it, or better..so not a whole lot of Shadow Axes or hah plannar axes of destruction running around here...my FrostWrath is prolly considered very uber by most...simply because its fabled, but we have PvP gear here that you don't have access to, purchased from city merchants once you have enough pvp kills and the weapons at the top end are very good, comparable to fabled raid drops. So anyway, mostly agreeing with you, and pointing out the answer to your question is above, if you take the time to go read it.... Syrius
Don't have to be able to clear DT to get shadow axe, or even have DT access just fyi. It comes from Halls of Seeing from a pretty easy boss.
