[p]As far as I can tell, given the looseness of the language used, the two of you are using the same formulae. Precisely stated, it's: [/p][p]Crit damage = max + 1 or actual * 1.3, whichever is greater. [/p][p]Whysprr[/p]
[p]It's actually max dmg +1 to max dmg * 1.3.[/p][p]Honestly there is a difference. I also honestly wished I ever posted this thread.[/p][p]No offence to you Whysprr, I find your posts amazingly imaginative and enjoyable to read.[/p]
[p]Sort of. Kall in this case is more correct, because he said OR, which was important there, becasue that's actually what is happening, and Whysprr flat out stated it. When Anjin is missing is that the OR in this case is the important part. You get a lot more MAX+1 hits than you do any other value (unless your weapon has a REALLY tight damage range). Anjin is less correct even though the absolutes he mentions (MAX +1 and MAX * 1.3) are correct.[/p][p] [/p][p]It really does seem like Anjin is intentionally missing points or misreading language. DR tends to be a greater factor than max hit. That is all I said. It's not the end-all be-all. I never said it was. But it takes a LOT of crit % to even make up a 10% difference in the average output of a weapon, which is what DR is. You tend to be a lot better off going for a higher DR weapon, because *as a bard* you are not achieving 50%+ critical hit rates. (Or if you are, it's not on any kind of consistent basis).[/p][p]When Kall explained the range, he explained it with all the necessary verbiage. He was correct, and Anjin then used the awesome crit thread (I love that thread) to explain why Kall was wrong, when in fact, Kall said exactly the right thing.[/p][p]Also, I was especially amused with [/p][p]"Wow, a weapon with a higher damage rating can have a lower max damage? Are you serious!? This is breaking news folks! [/p][p]That was EXACTLY what I was trying to illustrate if you bothered to read the previous threads."[/p][p]When he's still MISSING the point... that the lower max damage HIGHER DR weapon will outperform the higher max weapon in a very large amount of cases. Not all, certainly, but no one was saying that. And he keeps pushing the max damage idea as being what you should be paying attention to, *in spite of the very thread he quotes telling him how wrong he is*.[/p][p] [/p][p]Whysprr, as regards your cloak dilemma: whichever looks better, of course. Whichever makes the grander exit. 2% Crit chance is relatively easy to calculate your gain on with regards to autoattack anyway, much less easy to figure the to-hit bonus from the +to hit. Were I you, (and I'm not you, but if I were), then I'd go for the critical hit chance. I like spectacular other-color hits, because I color my crits. Much less easy to see the benefits to your bottom line with the +5 to hit. However, that said, if you are running with no other +pierce or slash or whatever flavor you use at all, chances are good the +5 will actually outperform the 2% crit.[/p][p] [/p][p]EDIT: Anjin, I'm sorry you are sorry you ever posted. It gives a chance to correct misperceptiosn, or advance one's own point of view. Just because I think you are wrong, and less restrained people think even less highly, does not mean your input is not actually welcome or encouraged. There is value to debate and discussion.[/p]
Yes, 77% of the crit hits with Vrak's club isn't higher than max damage + 1. That's why there's a threshold, max damage + 1 which is why the weapon is desirable for clerics that have 100% melee crits. They're always hitting for at least max damage + 1. That's why if a person has 100% melee crits there's a difference between weapons 1 - 425 and 300 - 425. The formula for how often a weapon would crit at max damage + 1 is ((max/1.3)-min)/(max-min)) where max = weapon's max damage and min = weapon's min damage. On the 1 - 425 weapon they're getting max damage + 1 76.8% of the time. On the 300 - 425 weapon they're getting max damage + 1 only 21.5% of the time. Again, don't correct someone unless you actually know what you're talking about.
Ok no BS for once from me but I have been reading this thread and right now my brain itches. Can someone please just sum it up, yes weapons depond on setup, crit rates, haste, DPS, DR, and it seems day of week and weather conditions. But PLEASE can someone clearly just say in like 1 sentence, when seeing which weapon is better the easiest thing to do is ________________________.
Androw@Najena wrote: [p]1. Ask yourself if you really have that much choice, or are just taking what drops. That's MY status with regard to Fabled weapons. [/p][p]2. Look for outstanding procs. I still use Dark Linger for hard solo battles and AOE raid battles because of the big honkin' lifetap. [/p][p]3. Compare Damage ratings. If it's more than a 10% difference ignore everything else and go with the higher. [/p][p]4. Compare delays. If DRs are close and one weapon has a substantially higher delay, go with that. [/p][p]5. If delays and DRs are similar, pick the weapon with the highest max/min damage ratio to optimize crits. [/p][p]That's my scheme, others may differ, but probably only minimally in terms of the order of the various factors. [/p][p]Note that even a DR difference of 10% makes an overall difference in output (character dps) for one of a dual-wield combo of roughly 1.7%, which you could parse 'till doomsday and not be able to prove statistically, so recognize that this whole discussion is basically final-polish stuff, not your fundamentals. [/p][p]Whysp [/p]
[p]OK Kall,[/p][p]Lets's start at the beginning as you're in a top hc guild and think you're the best.[/p][p]Is this thread correct:[/p][p]Thread[/p][p]YES or NO[/p][p]Answer that in a single word and we'll go onwards.[/p]
[p]"Sort of. Kall in this case is more correct, because he said OR, which was important there, becasue that's actually what is happening, and Whysprr flat out stated it. When Anjin is missing is that the OR in this case is the important part. You get a lot more MAX+1 hits than you do any other value (unless your weapon has a REALLY tight damage range). Anjin is less correct even though the absolutes he mentions (MAX +1 and MAX * 1.3) are correct."[/p][p]Again I refer you back to the thread mentioned above - do you agree with it or not. YES or NO?[/p]
Yes, so your point is what now? And if you want to bring my guild or whatever into this, you've yet to say who you are. In fact, I have no clue if you even play a dirge. All I know is that I accomplish more in 1 hour of playing than you probably have your entire raiding career.
[p]Wow! NOW we're really having a productive, data-driven discussion that's a great use of the time of the hundreds of people who read these boards. [/p][p]Whysp[/p]
[p]Apologies for mentioning Disso, I has a few too many last night *cough*. OK, I'm a tad confused here because you're adamant that you're right, and I respect that you have a tremendous amount of experience. What I really can't get my head around is that the thread that I linked does say "to" not "or". Am I misreading something?[/p][p]I've looked down the thread and it always refers to melee crit dmg as "Max damage +1 to Max Damage * 1.3".[/p][p]No offence but all I want to know is why you are are saying it's "Max damage +1 or Damage * 1.3" but also saying that thread is correct, because there is a massive difference between the results of the the 2 versions of the formula.[/p]
[p]Intervening in this sort of discussion is usually regrettable -- hi, Sorschae! -- but here goes. [/p][p]Anjin, it is correct to say that crit damage is max+1 to max*1.3. That's the range of crit attack net damage. It's a correct description of that range. [/p][p]It is also correct to say, mechanistically as opposed to descriptively, that crit damage is the better of max+1 and max*1.3 (less precisely one could say 'or' rather than 'the better of', but sloppy language has been the bane of this discussion already). After reading the thread you linked (for about the fifth time overall, but never mind), the author doesn't address, and isn't concerned with the mechanics of crit damage generation, it's entirely parse-driven data and doesn't really address the underlying mechanism, which is documented elsewhere but I forget where. [/p][p]Can you at all simplify your difference in the mechanistic (mathematical) description of how crit damage is generated with the way I put it above? I can't follow the long multiple-quote posts at all, my eyes just completely glaze over. [/p][p]Whysprr[/p][p] [/p]
I'm still waiting to hear this "massive difference" you speak of because I've already mentioned several posts ago what we were saying is the same thing except in two different ways yet you keep saying there's a huge disparity between the two. You can use the "OR" operator if you define the threshold (in this case damage * 1.3 must exceed max damage + 1 for damage * 1.3 to pass through the function and fire) which I clearly did so what's your point?
And here I thought I was just going to be reading a thread about what weapons dirges use....man was I wrong. /em sulks off to find some herbs to make the headache go away.
Tier 1 weapons: 1. Soulfire Sabre - One of the best if not the best DRs, solid ratio, best high end, great delay at 4 secs, solid proc, +7 piercing, +5 DPS - Best DW 2. Edged Pick of Earthly Might - Great DR, solid ratio, very nice delay, ok proc, 5 double attack bonus (huge selling point), unfortunately slashing 3. Grinning Dirk of Horror - Great spread and high end, great delay at 4 secs, + 3 piercing, very easily obtainable, best KOS weapon by a long shot 4. Bisected Sabre - Great DR, great delay at 4 secs, unfortunately slashing, +2 melee crits, blah spread with 1:3, but still good weapon Tier 2 weapons: 5. Thirneg's Thorn - Great DR, ok delay at 2 secs, blah spread with 1:3, but is piercing which is nice. 6. Rapier of Darkness - Good DR, ok delay at 2 secs, bit nicer spread then thorn, and +7 piercing which is great. Tier 3 weapons: 7. Dirk of Nightfall - ok proc, ok DR, +7 piercing, better than 1:3 ratio, crappy delay, solid weapon 8. Dirk of Negativity - ok DR, good spread, almost 2 delay and a piercer 9. Vampiric Axe of Balance - great spread, great DR, 2 delay, good proc, I would say its held back by being a slasher though 10. Balanced Magnetic Dagger - ok DR, good spread, similar weapon to Dirk of Negativity, gets some +parry over regen 10, little worse delay. That would be the "Lazy" breakdown, imo. Tier 1 weapons: The weapons with 3-4 delay are the best, cause you miss less auto attacks when casting CA/Spells, they all have great high ends/spreads, they all have good bonus effects either procs, or +dps/double attack or +piercing, or + crits. Tier 2 weapons: have 2 delay and are piercers, each has a pretty good selling point with the Thorn having a great DR, and the Rapier having huge +piercing and a superior spread. Tier 3 weapons: All have worse delays then 2 except Vamp Axe, which is a slasher and thus harder to buff with gear, thus misses more attacks. They have some effects on them that make them better then run of the mill fabled weapons, they all have better then 1:3 ratios for damage spreads, so they are ok choices. Afterthought: I would rank the Lucanic Sabre above Thirneg's Thorn, if including non- raid / non-fabled items in the list, its 4 delay and +5 dps boost it above any of the 2 sec delay weapons. The fact that it's piercing may result in it parsing higher then the Bisected Sabre as well with typical gear set ups, but I'm not really sure, its definitely inferior to the big 3 though. Also I was only dealing with DWs cause I think they are the best set up for a dirge currently and will parse higher then 1handers even with the Stamina line. But honorable mentions 1 hander-wise/ items to watch with the weapons change inc. Soulfire Gladius, Axe of Natural Order, Dagger of Purity, Clearcutter Machete
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: [face="trebuchet ms,geneva"] I would agree with most of what you put apart from what I put in bold/italic maybe my luck just sucks, only ever seen it drop twice in 9 months of raiding, but otherwise useful post, thanks Topanga.Figuring the best I can aim for at the moment is Soulfire Sabre and my current Rapier of Darkness.[/face] [face="trebuchet ms,geneva"] My other question relates to weapon skills currently with Swindlers Luck up I have around 430 piercing, I heard mutterings some time ago that the point at which increasing weapon skill becomes less beneficial is around the 450 mark, can someone confirm/deny this and explain a little as to how it is worked out if possible please [/face]
Jaedena@Blackburrow wrote: [face="trebuchet ms,geneva"] Perfect, thanks very much a little more +pierce gear and im there[/face]
