Alright, nvm I guess I get it. Min:Max is used as a tool to compare weapons with comperable DRs. I guess I was just reading too much into it, because clearly if you had a 1:3 that had a 240 high hit, and a 80 min, it would just own - but its DR would not be comperable to anything else out there. I was thinking people we're trying to say that the wider the spread the better the weapon is, but when weapons have lower lows the obviously have lower DRs and then the tool of min:max can not be used to compare them. The main type of example that was bothering me we was: Dirk of Negativity: 1.9 delay 19-98 damage (1:5 spread) 60.5 rating Thirneg's Thorn: 2 delay 33-99 damage (1:3 spread) 65.8 rating Clearly the Thorn is going to have higher crits, even though its spread is less then the Dirk, but I guess when talking about a difference of 6.3 DR, the min:max tool cannot be implemented as the DRs are not similar enough. But Weapon comparisons like the one above are what was driving me to say that whats going to matter is the high hit, and the delay. If you have a higher min and a smaller spread its just bonus... but it also will drive up the DR. EDIT: Also my post was mostly about Critical hits, and what sorts of weapons are best for them. I know that DR, and Delay play a huge role in what weapons are good, but it was more a question of why people valued the min:max ratio and sited it in so many posts. When really if you maxes and delay are comperable, the one with the higher min, less spread, and higher DR is going to be the better weapon.
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: [p] How I would go about assessing which weapon to use here (ignoring stats) would be:[/p][p]1. Look at the difference in DRs, in this case almost 10%.[/p][p]2. Look at the delay, it would have to be a .5 second difference for me to care at all. Even then, if they are both around 2 seconds, I don't care.[/p][p]3. Look at the spread of damage. It would have to be very different for me to care. If I am not running DKTM I don't care in the least.[/p][p]You have to look to see if the delay and spread of damage will be enough to compensate for the extra 10% auto attack damage from the higher DR. IMHO it would be very rare for a bard to need to worry too much about the damage spread as there is no way it will make up for the higher DR.[/p][p]Just on a side note, I disagree about the high hit being important. It does not matter at all by itself. That is all part of the DR. If it does more average damage, it has more delay, that is already taken into account when coming up with the DR, so you don't need to consider it twice. It is hard to explain but I think Scorchae did a good job at it earlier, explaining why it is the spread not the high hit that matters.[/p][p]P.S. The comment about the weapon with the less spread and higher damage being the better one is actually not correct. I wrote a fair bit about why but lost it and can't be bothered re-doing it For two weapons with the same DR, max damage makes no difference and the more spread the better.[/p]
[p]Yeah, I still wasn't very clear. What a higher spread does is improve the benefit you get from criticals to the average damage. In the example listed above, you'd need to have more than 50% critical hit rate for the crits to balance out the fact that the average damage is so much higher.[/p][p] [/p][p]High spread lowers DR. High spread weapons *gain* more to their average damage from critical hits, but that doesn't make them better than a tight spread weapon. You have to do some relative analysis there to find that out.[/p][p] [/p][p]I went and dug up the super-link with regards to critical hits: LINK![/p][p]A 1:3 damage spread weapon gets you to about +57.5% damage over average at 100% crit rate.[/p][p]A 1:5 damage spread weapon gets you to about +74% damage over average at 100% crit rate.[/p][p]Their DR gives you a basic idea of the damage they do; the Thorn due to its tighter spread is doing about 8% more damage per second. [/p][p]At 100% crit rate, you'd go for the dirk of negativity... because the damage numbers over average net you more than the ~8% damage difference. The increase from crits is linear, so if you have a 50% crit rate, your benefit over average is ~29%, whereas the dirk would be +37%... meaning all things considered, they are about equal (the base damage difference is near 8%, the damage increase from crits makes up 8%). Anything less than a 50% crit rate would turn the advantage solidly back to the thorn. Any of you bards running a 50%+ crit rate yet? =)[/p][p] [/p][p]EDIT: what I'm really saying is in general, use DR as a bard. Unless you have spectacular crit rates, you won't make up the difference from crits.[/p]
For two weapons with the same DR, the one with the larger spread will have the higher max damage... a 1-10 weapon vs a 5-6 weapon The 1-10 has the better spread and the higher max damage- And is the better weapon. My point was what makes it better is that with melee crits the 1-10 will be Critting for 14.3, where as the 5-6 weapon with melee crits will be hitting for 9.1. This is not a product of the spread but rather a product of it's high hit being higher. It's the same thing really cause a larger min-max spread with the same DR - will yeild a higher high end. I agree with what everyone is saying, just was trying to point out that damage spread can be misleading because in the case of something like Dirk of Neg and Thorn, the one with the better spread is actually worse. They have very comperable delays and high hits- which the important aspect for crits, and the Thorn has a far superior DR- which is the important aspect for non-critical hits.
[p]OK, I just want to point out that the max damage versus spread question isn't, actually. Whether you calculate the percent change in crits based on spread or based on maximum damage doesn't matter, for a given DR the two approaches are mathematically equivalent because spread and max are directly related. Use whichever -- ratio or max damage -- is easier for you to work with. [/p][p]Whysp[/p]
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: Whysprr@Kithicor wrote: Yea that was my point. 1) With the same DR, weapon with larger spread also has larger high hit. 2) That having a lower low hit does nothing to help a weapon (it just keeps the DR in check from being very high), if the weapon had the same high end and same delay and a higher DR as the result of a higher low end hit (like in the case of Thirneg's Thorn) it would just be a superior weapon.
[p]Crit dmg is based on the max dmg of a weapon. 2 Weapons with the same delay might have the same DR but the one with the higher max dmg will crit for higher. Example below:[/p][p]Dagger of uber critness[/p][p]Delay 4 secs Min DMG 10 Max DMG 230 = DR 60[/p][p]Dagger of ennui[/p][p]Delay 4 secs Min DMG 110 Max DMG 130 = DR 60[/p][p]The 1st weapon will crit for more. The DR is based on (x + y) / z.[/p][p]x = min DMG y = max DMG z = delay[/p][p]What has been misundertood earlier in this thread is that the DR of a weapon is based on min/max dmg and the delay, nothing else. i.e. The min dmg + max dmg = the DR * delay.[/p]
Sugota@Butcherblock wrote: As the desciples of cool would explain when faced with a hundred weapons and which is the coolest the only correct answer for a drige is of course " what I choose "
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: [p] [/p][p]This is not true, one cannot normally use the high hit for working out if it is better for crit purposes. If a weapon has the exact same DR and Delay then you could say that. Otherwise it is not true.[/p][p]That is why comparing Max damage is not often a good idea. You will rarely be considering weapons with the exact same delay as well as DR.[/p][p]A weapon that does 30 - 90 with a 2 second delay is actually gains less from crits overall than a weapon that does 1 - 60 with a 1 second delay. Despite the fact that both have the same DR and the slower one has the higher max damage.[/p][p]10 seconds of crit attacks: [/p][p]a) 5 x 90 damage = 450 damage[/p][p]b) 10 x 60 damage = 600 damage[/p][p]The weapon with the lower max in this example does double its average damage when it crits, the one with the higher max only does 50% more. [/p][p]So just to iterate, max damage does not matter. It is all factored into the DR and can be ignored. In the rare case you are comparing weapons with the same DR and Delay though, feel free to look at it if you don't like working out the ratio.[/p]
Bad example because you don't just auto-attack and you have haste. You will miss so much auto-attack time when using CAs/spells from the 1s weapon that the 2s weapon is better. Also, crits do not seem to be just the max. damage of a weapon. Crits can be anywhere from [max damage + 1] to [max damage * 1.3], according to some field research. Wish I had bookmarked that thread, but basically it comes down to the following: Critical hit damage = MAX ( [rolled result * 1.3], [max damage + 1] ) Meaning that you just do your attack roll, multiply the result by 1.3, if that is below [max damage + 1] your result is adjusted to [max damage + 1]. -------- But even when you leave out these effects, let's assume for a second that - a crit always equals the upper end of the damage spread and - we fight without combat arts/spells for 20s - In your example you posted a 100% crit chance which is not realistic for bards. Let's assume 10% (can be higher, sure, but let's do it so we have easy, even numbers) - Furthermore we assume that non-critical hits are distributed evenly throughout the damage spread, so that the average non-crit hit is [(upper bound - lower bound) / 2] With 10% crit chance, the 2s weapon would crit once in 20s, the 1s weapon twice. 2s-weapon: 1*90 + 9*60 = 630 1s-weapon = 2*60 + 18*30 = 660 So they are way closer together already. Now put it a haste modifier of 50 and use CAs - you will find that the longer delay weapon deals a lot more damage in a more realistic setting.
My 100% example is used because it's linear. A 1:3 damage spread weapon gets a 57.5%ish increase over average in damage, or 0.575% per critical hit percentage you have. I did ground it in reality again. It takes a LOT of crit percentage to even make up for a 10% DR difference in weapons, *BARRING* any other considerations.
[p]i got an interesting weapon from niz last night, dw slash dr around 50 with a proc listed as x4 100-130 ish damage.[/p][p] not amazing, but sure looks pretty, especially paired with bloodspiller. 1st time i seen the graphic (longish sword with jagged edges), think it came from the named that spawns adds and has the portal and book in its room. not had time to play with it yet[/p][p] [/p][p]edit: lol i read the title and assumed what the post was about, that will teach me lol, way off topic there sorry[/p][p]still my new sword looks cool [/p]
[p]If you want to compare 2 weapons for overall crit dmg rating, just divide the max dmg by the delay. It will work for all weapons as long as they are wieldable the same way (dw/1h/2h). The crit rating will always be lower than the DR btw as the min dmg isn't involved in the equation[/p][p]Thus you can look at the following examples:[/p][p]Grinning Dirk of Horror[/p][p]Max dmg = 215 Delay = 4 Crit rating = 53.75[/p][p]Vampiric Axe of Balance[/p][p]Max dmg = 108 Delay = 2 Crit rating = 54[/p][p]Rapier of Darkness[/p][p]Max dmg - 101 Delay = 2 Crit rating = 50.5[/p][p]Now the VAoB has the highest crit rating, but as it has a 2 sec delay is more likely to be delayed by a CA or Spell than a 4 sec delay weapon, so I would imagine the GDoH would actually do more crit DPS and more normal AA dmg over an normal encounter. If you are just autoattacking (naughty naughty!) the VAoB should average out doing more crit dmg (only just though)[/p][p]2H weapons (for example purposes)[/p][p]Vraksakin Claw Club (not wieldable by a scout, but an example of an uber 2h weapon back in KoS days)[/p][p]Max dmg = 425 (this has a ratio of 1:425 btw!) Delay = 4 Crit rating = 106.25 [/p][p]Pride's edge (considered the best KoS 2h sword for crits and overall dmg)[/p][p]Max dmg = 278 Delay = 3.5 Crit rating = 79.43[/p][p]You can see why the Vraksakin claw club was so sought after by brawlers. It was just an amazing crit dmg machine.[/p][p]Unless a quicker weapon has a reasonable amount higher crit rating over a slower weapon, I would choose the slower weapon. Needless to say I haven't included procs into this, it's purely crit dmg. [/p][p]Ratios and crit ratings only mean a lot if you actually crit hit!. The more % crit chance you have the more you'll get out of high ration/crit rating weapons.[/p][p]This is assuming the crit rating is actually right - my can of stella infront of me assures me it is, but there again it has assured me of a lot of things in the past.............[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote: [p]I maintain that the examples by Scorchae and myself were good for their purpose, which was to debunk some spurious maths and assertions. They were not ment to be real world examples, just show errors in maths and point out underlying principles. [/p][p]To make a thread like this useful to those that are confused, we want to break it down into a series of general rules like those stated already. [/p][p]Putting them all together in one example appears to just confuse people.[/p][p]General rules such as:[/p][p]- Higher DR = Excellent[/p][p]- Higher Delay = Very Good[/p][p]- Higher spread of damage = Good, but almost negligable for many bards. Bards do not crit enough for it to matter.[/p]
THANK YOU! That was all I was saying. In regards to Critical hits high hit and delay are all that matters. And that in regards to non-critical hits what matters is damage rating. All the spread serves as is a tool to compare weapons with similar delays and similar damage ratings. And all I was pointing out was to weary of it, and keep in mind that it is a tool for comparing similar weapons. That the important factors for weapon quality are ones' delay:high hit ratio which will dictate the quality of critical hits, and the quality of a weapon's damage rating will dictate the average non-critical hits.
[p]Wrong, wrong & wrong again imo.[/p][p]Firstly, to say that bards do not crit enough is just plain stupid. We have plenty of +crit % gear available to us and also our own buffs. We should be striving to enhance our crit %.[/p][p]As far as your way of choosing weapons.....you stick with it if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it to any player.[/p][p]You have to look at the most important attributes of a weapon 1st. As enhancing % chance of crit hits and minimising of auto attacks being delayed are the best ways of enhancing our aa dps, the MOST important are delay and max dmg, so you can determine crit rating, finally you look at the DR (but take it for what it really is). Since the DR includes min dmg in its equation and you only need delay and max dmg to really determine how juicy the weapon is, DR is basically a flawed representation of a how good a weapon really is.[/p][p]An example being 2 weapons with a DR of 60. Now does that mean the weapon is really good? Nope, all it tells you is that it has potential to be good. It's the underlying attributes beneath DR that are the key. [/p][p]This is of course if you are going for basic aa dmg, you might want the fastest weapon available (with the highest crit rating of course) to use in conjunction with CoB. [/p]
I think Delay is definitely important whether going for critical hits or not, missing hasted 1.6 delay weapon auto attacks to 1-2 sec cast times is just unnecessary, and with longer delay weapons is not an issue. In this game it really works out pretty easily cause the good weapons with longish delays for the most part have the higher high-end hits (and as a result of balancing their damage ratings lowish low end hits- yielding the larger min:max spreads). My parsing tends to lean toward a shared opinion with Anjin, that weapons with similar delays the one's with the very high high-ends tend to put out better numbers for me. My normal gear set up (w/ Don't Kill the Messenger) only has me at 10-14% crits depending on what I wear, but this percent still yields stronger output then my higher damage rating weapons that I've used in the past.
[p]AGH. That is NOT correct. DO NOT compare two weapons by dividing max hit by delay and call it done.[/p][p] [/p][p]Spread matters on the AVERAGE. Unless you are working with 100% crit rate, then yes, the spread matters. I realize that crits make you hit for MAX +1, but that is not your only consideration, and holy crap but THINK with the brain you were given: DR is NOT based on your max hit divided by delay. Otherwise two weapons with the same max hit and same delay would have the same DR and that's CLEARLY not the case when their spread is different. High hit only determines what your high critical hit is going to be, NOT how much damage you are GAINING from critical hits over average. Over time, the gain over average is where you net, not just that you could hit for a higher number.[/p][p] [/p][p]You can persist in thinking that only the high hit is what matters for your crit output. You would be doing yourself a disservice, but go right ahead.[/p][p]the 425 damage weapon you mentioned there, I'm sorry... does it hit for 1-425? If not, it's not a 1:425 weapon. Please understand, I am not picking on you, but that is incorrect, and fostering misinformation.[/p][p]What Unwise was saying was that DR and delay are better factors for understanding which weapons will work better for *most* bards than spread, in terms of raw autoattack output. He wasn't saying bards don't crit enough. He was saying that bards don't crit enough for a spread difference to matter.[/p][p] [/p][p]Maybe some examples:[/p][p]Two weapons with the same DR, and same delay. One hits harder than the other; it *necessarily* has a higher spread than the other weapon. In this scenario, the "higher damage" weapon would be the clear favorite for even 1% critical hits, due to the slight edge it would have, barring any other factors. In this scenario, yes, Max hit, being a function of the SPREAD, is what determines your decision, again *barring other factors*.[/p][p]Two weapons with different DR, same delay. Chances are GOOD that you want to go with the higher DR weapon. In this case the higher DR weapon will almost certainly have a higher max hit, because they are the same delay, but it's not required. A 4 second delay 1:3 weapon could have a smaller hit but higher DR than a 1:5 weapon and still do more damage. You might be doing yourself a disservice if you only think in that direction, and the increase over AVERAGE damage with the crit rate you have should be how you pick which weapon is going to do more damage over time.[/p][p]Two weapons same DR, different delay. Hard to choose here, since delay means so much to some people. Chances are you might want to go with the slower weapon... not for your crit rate though. If they are same DR, different delay, and you have a high crit rate, the weighting would lean on the weapon with the higher spread, as long as one of the weapons didn't drop you into <1second swing times... but you might have to engage the brain, or at least do a little parsing.[/p]
