Dirge Weapon Choices

Discussion in 'Dirge' started by ARCHIVED-Nagbok, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Kall Guest

    If anyone would actually use Rapier of Darkness over Thirneg's Thorn because its max damage is +2 higher is stupid. The formula is, as I'm sure it's been mentioned 100 times already, Max Damage + 1 or Damage * 1.3 and it takes the higher of the 2. That means that a weapon that is 1 - 100 and 33 - 100 are not equal even if you have 100% melee crits. Thirneg's Thorn is much better than the Rapier except for the lack of +7 piercing. If you can't realize that then do the math and find out why it is.
  2. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    [p]I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that DR is not the be all and end all of how good a weapon is - far from it. The best way of determining the best weapon is by looking at the figures that make it up. Below are some simple observations:[/p][p]If the delay, dr and max dmg are the same, so will the min dmg (same spread)[/p][p]Delay is good (but not good for % based procs like CoB - but you can always wield a faster weapon for CoB if you want to) because the higher the delay the less likely than an autoattack will be delayed by a spell/combat art. i.e. you are getting the most out of your autoattacks.[/p][p]The closer the crit rating (max dmg / delay) is to the actual DR the greater the crit dmg %age will be of your overall aa damage (assuming you actually crit hit).[/p][p]There are many occasions where a weapon with a higher DR will actually do less aa dmg than one with a lower DR (both have same delay). This is because of critical hits.[/p][p]Enhancing crit dmg is the best way of going from decent dps to uber aa dps (assuming you have the same buffs dps/haste buffs on you!).[/p][p]Given that 2 weapons have the same delay, always choose the one with the higher max dmg (assuming they're not light years apart in average dmg - (max dmg + min dmg /2))[/p][p]Once you've chosen (or tbh before) your great crit weapon, you need to ensure you enhance your chance of getting crit hits. At lvl 70 there are LOADS of items that give you a better chance of a crit hit. Below are listed some the easily obtainable treasured/legendary items:[/p][p]Hunter's Steelweave Leggings (legs) Sour Song Choker (neck) Bracelet of the League Guardians (wrist) quest reward Earring of the League Guardians (ear) quest reward[/p][p]Just those 4 items will give +8% crit chance. Add that to DKTM endline Bard AA buff and that goes up to 15.5%. Add that to other buffs and it obviously gets better.[/p][p]Lastly, you can have the best weapons and crit chance in the world, but if you don't hit you do no dps. So always try and ensure you have +melee skills gear. It's easier if you have a single dmg type (say just piercing weapons) as you only have to concentrate on +piercing (dissonant boom provides these melee skill enhancers but other buffs might be more important for the group you're in). [/p][p] [/p]
  3. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    [p]I was illustrating how a weapon with a higher dmg rating can have a lower max dmg. Obviously the 6 point difference in DR far outweights the meager 2 point different in max dmg (as far as crit gain vs overall aa dmg).[/p][p]btw - it's not Max Damage + 1 or Damage * 1.3, it's Max Damage + 1 to Max Damage * 1.3. Combat arts work on the Damage * 1.3 rule. [/p][p]Assuming this thread is correct of course. [/p]
  4. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

  5. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    [p]Sorschae/Priestbane,[/p][p]As you've condensed everything into a single example, I was illustrating the fact that there ARE weapons (more than you think) that don't follow 'max dmg must be higher if the delay is the same but dr is higher' rule that you mentioned.[/p][p]Also, a 6 point difference in DR would require a a massive +crit chance to overcome in actual aa dmg as you said. If you want I can supply you with examples where the dr difference is actually less. How about this example:[/p][p][IMG][/p][p][IMG][/p][p]Although these are just basically aa only weapons, look at the difference here. The difference between the max dmg is a massive %age, yet Windrazor has a lower DR.[/p][p]Also, you mentioned this:[/p][p]"thorn's tighter damage range gives you more average damage"[/p][p]Why is this? over 100 swings a 1-100 min/max weapon should average out the same as a 50-51 on non crit hits.[/p][p]What is comes down to is exactly what I said - DR isn't the be all and end all of determining how good a weapon is. As long as there isn't a massive difference in DR (comparing it with another of the same wield type), the slowest weapon with the best crit rating is best (leaving aside inherent weapon stats/procs).[/p]
  6. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

  7. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Anjin wrote:
  8. ARCHIVED-Isard Guest

    [p]I'll stick my nose in here where it doen't really belong...[/p][p]This debate has been fascination to read and I have learned a lot from it (seriously, not sarcastic). As a Warden with a 75% chance to crit (yes, I know you are jealous) I can test various weapons almost instantly now to see the overall effects of DR, Min / Max damage, Delay, etc. because, well, 3 out of 4 of my hits WILL be criticals.[/p][p]Without providing specific results, linking weapons and such I can say that using a weapon with a higher damage spread as compared to another weapon with a similar DR (within 10 points) will give higher crits. Period. [/p][p]However, I don't see a huge overall increase in DPS necessarily because as pointed out, the average hit of the weapon with the wide damage spread will be lower than the weapon with the tighter spread. So, in a way, they balance out. Granted, because I crit 75% of the time nearly all of my damage is via critical hits now so my results may not help much. Also, as pointed out above, crits are nice and all but if you cannot hit the mob it does you no good so weapons which enhance your skills or give a better chance to hit, as in have a higher DR, might be better in the long run.[/p][p]Anyway, sorry to throw in my mostly uneducated and non-useful thoughts![/p][p] [/p]
  9. ARCHIVED-Zygwen Guest

    This graph illustrates how weapons High Min/Max ratio along with High crit chance can make them out damage weapons with higher DRs but lower Min Max ratios. The top bars show the maximum potential damage for each weapon. The bottom bars show the worst case scenario for auto attacks being delayed by Combat Arts that have a casting+recovery time of 1 second. The red dotted line shows the peformance of Rapier of Darkness if you spam Combat Arts with casting+recovery time of 1 second. Rapier of Darkness (59.5 Rating) Min/Max Ratio 5.61 Grinning Dirk of Horror (56.8 Rating) Min/Max Ratio 8.91 Vampiric Axe of Balance (63.5 Rating) Min/Max Ratio 5.68 Dirk of Nightfall (64.8 Rating) Min/Max Ratio 3.95 Bisected Saber (65.4 Rating) Min/Max Ratio 3.01 [IMG] The second graph shows how haste can affect weapon performance. The horizontal lines indicate where combat arts with casting+recovery time interfere with a weapons damage potential, either because the delay of the weapon is less than one second or CA chaining is forcing the delay to increments of 1 second. [IMG] Trying to figure out which weapon is better is a complicated procedure that depends on your specific haste, dps mod, double attack mod, melee crit chance, spell crit chance, your melee weapon damage bonus and your Int spell damage bonus. In the first graph, Dirk of Nightfall is the best choice unless you have a melee crit chance greater than 40% in which case Vampiric Axe of Balance takes over. In the second graph we see that CAs that take 1 second will start interfering with Dirk of Nightfall at 60% haste and interfere with Vampiric Axe of Balance and Rapier of Darkness at 100% haste. At 105 haste bisected saber takes the lead if you are using CAs. I hope that made some sense.
  10. ARCHIVED-Unwise Guest

    Anjin wrote
    As a general rule, comparing weapons with similar delays, I look at the DR difference. Lets say it is 5%, I try and work out if the max damage is going to make enough difference on crits to make up for 5% of my aa damage. The answer is very seldom yes. I can see that there could be weapons where that was the case, I have just never won any :(
    There is some discussion going on atm about whether crit % chance scales by mob level. I think it certainly does for lower level mobs, I have not had enough time to check on orange mobs though.
    P.S. There is the quote from a Dev re: crit chance
    "The scaling is pretty insignificant until you get to orange cons. Even against a high orange con it wouldn't be too noticeable since its still pretty close and would look like a few bad rolls with the rng which can happen anytime."
    <source: http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread...6120#post176120>
    Edit - Text was an annoyinly dark blue colour.
  11. ARCHIVED-Kall Guest

    Wow, a weapon with a higher damage rating can have a lower max damage? Are you serious!? This is breaking news folks! btw you're wrong, it is Max Damage + 1 or Damage * 1.3. Let me spell it out for you because you obviously can't comprehend this formula. If Damage * 1.3 is greater than Max Damage + 1 then it uses Damage * 1.3. If it isn't greater than Max Damage + 1 then it uses Max Damage + 1. No one cares about combat arts in a thread talking about weapons and auto attacks. If you're going to correct someone make sure they made a mistake instead of posting useless stuff like you've been doing which is completely irrelevant.
  12. ARCHIVED-Pogopuschel Guest

    EDIT: pointless posting removed
  13. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

  14. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

  15. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    [p]Kall,[/p][p]Even your guildmate, Calaglin goes with the "max +1 - max*1.3" rule. See this thread. I bet you wondered what all the hype was with Vraksakin's Claw Club.[/p][p] [/p]
  16. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    [p]EDIT: You'll not that I said from decent DPS to Uber dps - to be able to get decent dps you can expect people to have +melee skills anyway (they are also far easier to get than +crit % skills). Let me simplify this.[/p][p]To get max melee dps you need to have high crt %. If you have high % crit chance you really want weapons that have a high crit ratio. You CANNOT gauge crit ratio from DR. DR does come into effect when determining non-crit hits, but +2 DR doesn't weigh up against a weapon that offers superior crit dmg (assuming same delay) if you have reasonable % crit chance.[/p][p]An analogy of DR is combined MPG in a car. The combined MPG looks great, so I buy the car. Unfortunately I do a lot of motorway driving and the actual MPG is a looooong way away from the combined MPG. When on the very odd occasion I drive at 30mph, the MPG is absolutely amazing![/p][p]The moral of the story is check out the MPG for the environment you'll be driving the car. In a lot of occasions the combined MPG will be an accurate reflection of both urban and motorway driving, but you can't assume that (the car might only have 3 gears!).[/p][p]Likewise with DR - you can't assume just by DR that the weapon is great. If you want to maximise your +crit dmg, you should really be looking at the max dmg and comparing that to weapons of the same delay and similar DR to determine which is the best option.[/p][p]So finally we come to the point. By using DR as the factor for choosing weapons you might well be overlooking weapons that will achieve high overall aa dps (leaving delay out).[/p][p] [/p]
  17. ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd Guest

    [p]This would be off-topic, except that we've wandered so far into the arcana of crit and dps production that it's actually on-topic. I've been using a windcloth cloak since cloaks came out; nope, still don't have all the blasted pages; but last night a simple treasured cloak dropped in Mistmoore Castle for me with +2% melee crits. [/p][p]By the way, does anyone else think the word 'critical' is too strong for a mechanic that adds something like 30-50% damage to a hit? When a medical laboratory calls in a critical value, it means a life is in danger. [/p][p]Where was I? Right, cloak choices. So, since I got the Darkened Gauntlets for haste, I've been using the windcloth cloak for its +5 to piercing and so on. Question is, then, which should I use routinely? Windcloth with +5 to hit, or this new thing with +2% crits? [/p][p]Yes, I know I should get the Cloak of Flames, but my tedium-tolerance won't let me go to New Tunaria more than once a week. Yes, I know the DT access quest gives a fab bracelet with haste, and then I can get Vhalen's hands and stuff, but that really is off-topic. Maybe there's another cloak that's widely available better than either, but I haven't seen it. No God cloaks, OK? I'm a Tunare-worshipper and that's that, my parents would have a fit if I went off and worshipped some other deity and every Winterfest dinner would be a long, bread-crumbling exercise in pointed remarks about how my old friends missed me down at the ol' temple, and don't Marr's worshippers secretly steal Tunarian's pets to sell overseas for converts? [/p][p]Thanks for any opinions, [/p][p]Whysp[/p]
  18. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    I used to wear the darkened gauntlets but then looted the Kindred Cloak of the Warrior (in MMIS). That has 25% haste and +2% melee crit chance. So off went the gauntlets with the fabled +spell dmg adornment :(
    I guess the best thing to do would be to compare parses (in a decently long zone) of the +5 melee skill cloak and the +2% Crit chance cloak. You might find that with the weapons you're using, the critical hits aren't that high so the +5 melee skill works best. I guess a lot really depends on what lvl mobs you're fighting. With dissonant boom up, +5 melee skills isn't going to make a tremendous difference until you wander into yellow and orange con mobs.
    I really do like +crit, +dps or +haste modifiers on cloaks though as, since cloaks rarely offer (or don't even) provide resists they're almost a wear and forget item (i.e. you're not going to swap them over if you need to be high in a particular resist). Also you might want to consider that having lots of +crit % items will never be an overkill, whereas heaps and heaps of +piercing will only provide lots benefit against lvl 74/75+ mobs.
  19. ARCHIVED-Kall Guest

    lol are you seriously this dumb? You're posting the crit range. Max damage + 1 is the minimum. Max Damage * 1.3 is the maximum. Guess what, you don't get the minimum or the maximum on every crit like you seem to think. You either hit the minimum (max + 1) or get somewhere in the middle, or hit the maximum (max * 1.3) which is exactly what I posted in the first place. What is so hard to understand about this? I'm not sure how I can spell it our for you anymore. What you're basically doing is saying my formula is incorrect and then posting the range that my formula already incorporates.
  20. ARCHIVED-Anjin Guest

    [p]OK this is what I said:[/p][p]"btw - it's not Max Damage + 1 or Damage * 1.3, it's Max Damage + 1 to Max Damage * 1.3"[/p][p]Your reply:[/p][p]"btw you're wrong, it is Max Damage + 1 or Damage * 1.3"[/p][p]The you said:[/p][p]"What you're basically doing is saying my formula is incorrect and then posting the range that my formula already incorporates." [/p][p]Are you honestly saying there is no difference between the formulas? Think about it.....which formula is more likely to get higher crit? Agreed, the final number will be in the same range, but think about how often a weapon will get a crit > max dmg +1 with your formula. The Vraksakin Claw Club would crit with max dmg +1 the majority of the time.[/p][p]Let's go down to basics just for YOU:[/p][p]With Vraksakins claw club the range is 1 - 425. Now the average hit would be 212 so since 212 * 1.3 is < max dmg +1 (426) the average crit hit would be max dmg +1. Infact, you would require a hit of > 327 to crit to get a value greater than max dmg +1. This means that 77% of crit hits wouldn't be higher than max dmg + 1.[/p][p]Now tell me that the 2 formulas are the same.[/p][p]Finally, I leave you with the start of your previous post:[/p][p][size="x-small"]"lol are you seriously this dumb?"[/size][/p][p]EDIT: Oh, I forgot something - where in the formula that I presented was it either max +1 OR max *1.3. It was max +1 TO max *1.3.[/p]