I cite the manaburn-wizard days of EQ1. They choose to nerf it. But I think they could've also simply tacked on a DoT that doesn't stack to it too...
Hmm, in case you ever played EQ1...remember manaburn when it stacked? Well in case you didn't play it was a fancy little spell that when it stacked did massive amounts of damage and manaburn raids were the common response (grab as many wizards as possible, 1cleric, 1tank...and raid every big bad that was up.) /rinse, /repeat. Um, that's not how MB groups worked. There were a select number of 32k targets that MB teams could hit once an hour... or was it 90 minutes. These targets were essentially limited the Kunark dragons and the WW 32k dragons. Anyway, 6 wizards would silmultaneously cast manaburn then colect the loot. DOT stacking is an issue at all levels of the game.
The point is that a sufficiently powerful ability of a certain class that is able to stack (in this case, stack means "operate simultaneously without impedement") with the same ability WILL be used in such a fashion... whatever the game is called.
You can't even begin to compare this to Manaburn. It wasn't even that good when it did stack. It was only used to kill Kunark targets. It drained all the Wizards mana. So in the long run in any given environment it was better not to use it. I think the biggest thing ever killed by a Manaburn team I heard of was Sontalak... whooooeeee a ST, a few Kunark spells and bragging rights. If you tried to form an entire raiding guild out of manaburn wizards you'd blow all your mana getting a chunk off the mobs hp then get your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] handed to you since your dps just went out the window. I fail to see how making a spell that every Warlock gets without needing to grind out a ton of AA points (EQ1 manaburn) work for two Warlocks at once is overpowered. Are two wizards in the same group both allowed to use Ice Comet? By your logic you'd see groups of 4 Wizard, Tank and Healer running around. Has this happened? The only thing this would even affect for me is BSS and SB atm. Hell I don't even cast SB is most groups since it's not worth my time. It was damned annoying that when grouping with other Sorcerers we used to have to divvy up DoT'ing duties. Kaziq = Kaziqueal or coincidence?
Yep, I played EQ1, and a manaburning wizard to boot. Are you even lvl 50? Raid mobs on average take more than 5 minutes to kill, most upwards of 10. Even if you look at some of the ones that have groups of adds with them like Overlord Oxulius you would need a LOT of warlocks to take those adds out in one cast of devastation and that simply would be ridiculous. Raid caps mean that you have to be responsible with your rosters in this game, and you need a good mix of classes. Any "team devastation" in *this* game would be relegated to killing non-raid multi-encounters. Regardless, I've changed my position on Devastatin dot stacking as it would be more likely to play into the hands of plat farmers. If the BSS change goes in it will make up for the nerf.
The point is that a sufficiently powerful ability of a certain class that is able to stack (in this case, stack means "operate simultaneously without impedement") with the same ability WILL be used in such a fashion... whatever the game is called. So using your logic: 2 Templars should not be able to heal the same target, 2 Necros should not be able to use thier pets on the same target, 2 Assassins cannot assassinate the same target. 2 Wizards in the raid? Sorry only 1 of you can cast Ice Comet. Sorry, you cant come to the raid, we already have an Inquisitor. a sufficiently powerful ability Is Static Pulse 'sufficiently powerless' enough that it should stack? How about a level 27 DOT.. is that **** enough to allow stacking? Help me out here, I'm having a really tough time understanding your logic.
Dots absolutely need to stack! There shouldn't even be a question about this. Our best spell is a dot and having them not stack will cause multiple warlocks not to be wanted on raids. There is really nothing else that needs to be said.
That's not what I am saying at all. In the case of healing especially, obviously there is a cap as to how much you can heal... so how does that even apply? I am having trouble understanding YOUR logic. I am not even saying Devastation is powerful enough not to stack. I was simply saying that there can come a point where abilities should not stack. The person I was originally asked where something like that (i.e. a powerful ability caused one class to dominate a particular raid-type enivornment) happened. Now, maybe he meant "solely on EQ2," but he didn't say that and I think the principle itself applies. I would also agree that perhaps generally DoTs and Debuffs should stack. It would certainly make things easier... but ultimately I don't really mind having to work with other players either to divide duties for efficiency.
Well it has nothing to do specifically with Devastation. The issue is with DOT stacking in general. That our 'premiere' damage ability can be indefinately blocked by another Warlock is a bit troubling. This lowers the desirability of multiple Warlocks on raids. Since our primary role is dealing damage, I would really like to see the DOT stacking issue fixed.... if not, just have the total damage for our spells (DD+DOT) be applied on the initial hit.
Look at this... Wizard level 39~49 main nuke: immolation -> It's a single target dot. It does about 300+350*3=1350 damage. Warlock level 37~49 main nuke: nil distortion -> It's a single target dd. It does about 1500 damage. Both of them have about the same recast time and damage (immolation is slightly weaker.) And both of them are still very importatnt nukes at level 50. (since the level 50 spells have 45 sec long recast time.) This is just like devastation vs. ice comet... wizards also have "the same dots dont stack" problem. Message Edited by QQFatman on 02-28-2005 01:26 PM
hmm you guys know the Devastation dot only lasts about 5 secs?? just cordinate with other warlocks on when you can cast yours... on longer duration DoT's i can see where stacking would be important though this isnt much of a nerf at all...wont change my gameplay much... will only make soloing a tad slower
Actually yeah... with a 45 sec recast, DOT stacking becomes a non-issue. Are you sure the DOT portion is only 5 seconds? The earlier AE DD/DOTs last about 15.
Effie, we haven't been saying that when the same classes are grouped together they should be completely gimped... i don't know where you're getting that from. we're saying that they shouldn't give 100% the same benefit as they would by themselves. let's say a group of 5 has a wizard and needs a sixth. there are 2 wizards lfg, and 1 warlock lfg. with the reduction of damage due to wizzy dots not stacking, the best choice would be to pick up a warlock (this diversifies the game). let's say, however, that this group of 5 including a wizard is looking for one more, and the only one lfg is another wizard. well, since it's not THAT big of a nerf, it doesn't kill the group to pick up a second wizzy. do you not get this? also, what you said about templars, you are forgetting something. their buffs (which play an active role in the success of the group) do not stack, again creating the desire for groups to diversify. every single class loses some of its abilities when grouped with the same class, but in no way does it kill the group. Message Edited by Mild und Leise on 02-28-2005 12:54 PM
Oh I get it. I just think that the DOT stacking bug should be fixed instead of making excuses why it should remain in game.
