Contested Need to Go

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

You're not paying attention at all.
HM Ox requires, REQUIRES, at least 400k sustained raid dps for almost 4 minutes. Other contested the lag sucks, but like HM Klaak it doesn't have a DPS requirement so you can battle through the lag for an hour or more if needed to kill the mob.
HM Ox if its not dead in the ~4 min timeframe you automatically wipe and have to start over.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Open your eyes then imo:
Kander wrote:

Gaige wrote:

Hm... 5 to 10? You might want to check the date on his post gaige... over a month ago now. And it missed the GU...

Gaige wrote:

Oh, I get it, Gaige. I understand the lag issue completely. Guilds come in and kill Ox when there's little server lag, so you can't kill him later when it's not primetime. As Atan said though, it's a contested spawn. If you want it bad enough, then you'll find a way to get it done.

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Listen, my guild would have no problem two grouping easy Ox within 5 mins of spawn every spawn locking it down on Unrest forever.
"Wanting it bad enough" - doesn't mean the servers are performing well enough to sustain 400k+ raid dps for the almost 4 mins that it requires to kill HM Ox.
So while the lag doesn't ever matter on easy mode because it doesn't have a time limit, it does affect the hard mode because of the time limit.
So there is literally nothing we can do. If its too laggy to output the required dps we absolutely can not kill the mob targeted towards our guild, the only option we'd have is to continually kill easy if its up and the server is laggy, denying him just because we can.
That is how you think it should be?

Xill wrote:

There is this misconception that all "end game raiders" are elitist jerks, and this is simply not the case. Are there some who are? Most definately. Just because there are some doesn't mean that we all are. Your post here illustrates your view on all end game raiders and it's sad to see. I can tell you that while it "may" be true that some would do what you think, not all would. I know I could care less about the easy mode mob, and the only reason I would ever have my guild pull it would be if it were up and we wanted to try the hard mode.
I also want to point out that not all guilds raid at the same time. I'm not sure how your server is Xill but I play on Najena and we have guilds on 4 separate time zones who are more than capable of killing these easy mode contested. I believe that my guild is the only one on server who when these mobs are up have another guild even show up, the other time zone raids have a monopoly on it. With the encounters being changed to allow hard mode to spawn when easy is killed, there is a great chance that ALL of the guilds on my server will have a chance to pull the mob. This has always been one of the points of contention with the casual players who never even showed up to contested, yet were vocal about being locked out of the fun. This change would actually open up these encounters to more guilds and players which seems to be what SOE is wanting to happen. Isn't this what the majority of the players would prefer as well, rather than the easy mode dieing and then NOBODY gets the chance to experience the hard mode?
Really I just don't understand the thoughts behind some who are posting here thinking it's acceptable to block other guilds out of experiencing the game to its fullest, and also to some who think 2 separate encounters should be tied in to the same spawn cycle. Could you imagine the backlash if, for instance, all instanced content were contested zones and then there were 1 or 2 guilds on each server completely locking everything down? That is basically what is being stated by some is acceptable, as you have to get there first or risk losing out.
So in closing, these so called "contested" need to either be removed from the game, or they seriously need to be separated into 2 separate encounters or else leave the hard mode up when the easy is killed until the easy is set to spawn again in about 3 days time. I don't understand why it was stated in this thread weeks ago that the devs love the idea, yet we still have not seen any change to the way these encounters work. The change would honestly give a ton more exposure of these contested mobs to a great percentage of the games population which is a winning formula across the board.

Here's what the bottom line is, plain and simple:
The hard modes - particularly hard mode Ox - are difficult to kill with zone lag.
The resident server uberguilds have to wait until off-peak hours to pull hard mode - because the lag monster is too difficult to deal with.
This means that the server "scrub" guilds may just potentially get a chance to form up and pull an easy mode encounter while the uberguild is sitting there waiting for the server lag to open up a kill window.
The uberguilds are all on here fighting hard to get it changed because they don't want those scrub guilds to have any chance at potentially taking a spawn away. They want to be able to kill the easy mode version within a couple minutes of it spawning with 2 groups, block those scrub guilds then take their sweet time with HM up until server conditions make things optimal for their kill.
This is the bottom line. Any other arguments about style of the encounter, what's fair or not or whatever are just attempts to obscure the above so it looks like there is some benevolent reason or something as to why all the uberguilds want it this way.
If the changes are made to allow the easy mode to be killed and the hard mode to stay up, it will go back to being locked down by one guild again. The uberguilds will just plow down easy mode in minutes to block the scrub guilds, because they can without any repercussions, then have all week to take pulls at hard mode whenever they want.

Hecula wrote:

"Uber Guilds" will be far less likely to kill easymode version TBH. If they were at all concerned with it, they would be dying anytime it popped within mintutes of it popping, if hard mode were killable by them or not, because they want to stop others from it, but lag is normally too bad for hard mode anyways. If the change goes in, "Scrub guild" will get to kill the little cute fluffy mode and get their loot, and then "uber guild" won't need to kill the easy mode either and everyone should be happy. No top end guild wants anything for any reason off easy Ox especially, thus they won't waste their raid time, kind of like they won't waste it in the Icy Keep Raid zone now.

Gaige wrote:

How do I think it should be? I think SOE should fix the performance issues. Server lag shouldn't be a major factor in whether an encounter succeeds or fails. In the least, I think that contested mobs should be moved to instances that work something like Lord Ree's room in Wailing Caves; When the door is open, a raid can go in, and then the door locks behind them. If they fail, they get zoned out, and within x minutes, the door opens again. That wouldn't completely alleviate the problem, but it would be better than having contested mobs in open zone. In this case, the zone entrance itself would be contested.
What I disagree with, is the argument of some of the 'raiders' in this thread, who want to do away with the easy mode encounter. Whether or not people kill the easy mode encounter has NO effect on your guild's ability to kill Ox on hard mode, if server lag is that big of an issue. None. The argument to remove the easy encounter so that 'hard core' guilds can get a shot at killing the hard mode encounter is, frankly, selfish and ridiculous.

Nobody is asking to get rid of the easymode encounter, they are asking for the hard mode to not be despawned from someone killing the easymode. It's basically as if a "scrub" guild really wants easymode ox, but some guy comes and 1 shots a solo mob and prevents it from spawning. Same scenario, killing a weak mob should never prevent the real mob from spawning.
I like the idea of hardmode staying up after easymode dies. The only other decent option would be a placeholder system where sometimes easymode pops and sometimes hardmode.

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

Nope, I call BS. The ONLY REASON easy mode doesn't currently die immediately is because the uberguilds are waiting for a better server environment to pull hard mode. That's the ONLY REASON. Otherwise you're telling me that all those uberguilds will pass up an easy 2-groupable encounter that has loot that they can still likely sell for a few hundred plat or at the very least get an easy chance at a couple manas. And they get to easily block all those scrub guilds as an extra bonus.
For what reason would they pass this up again? Benevolence? Because they just don't care? Hahaha! No really, that was funny.
Sorry, what you're suggesting goes against the entire history of EQ and any MMO with contested for that matter.

For the same reason that most won't be clearing Icy Keep? There's plenty of content right now once Underfoot Depths comes back in. You're suggesting they'll be spending time on something that's basically a waste of time rather than things which are worthwhile. And even suggesting they'd call list for something that's alt-loot.
I really think that won't be commonplace.

Hecula, please explain what an "uber guild" killing the easy mode Ox accomplishes. The loot is terrible and can be bought for marks in Paineel, so why would any guild who does not need the upgrades kill it? Please get past the "hard core guilds hate all casual and always will go out of there way to screw them over" mantra, because honestly you are simply wrong on that. Also I have yet to see anyone saying that the easy mode should be taken out of the game, all that is being argued is that it should NOT affect another mob.

Hecula wrote:

I have no desire to kill either easymode Ox or Klaak and my guild has been leaving both up since about a month after SF launch when we didn't need any of the loot anymore and wanted to start trying the hardmode encounters.

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Did you even read this thread? NO ONE SAID THAT. All we want is for when the easymode Ox dies to whatever raid kills it, the hardmode encounter spawns and stays up until it dies or the easymode mob would've spawned again.
Nothing in this thread talks about doing away with the easymode encounter, learn to read?
Hecula wrote:

Yes, we'll pass it up, just like we passed up the Dominus mobs and just like we're never doing Icy Keep again after we got our server first for the dragon.
Easymode Ox drops legs that you can BUY off a MERCHANT. Why would anyone waste their time channel selling loot you can already easily buy yourself? We wouldn't.
Killing a mob just so others can't only happens when that mob drops loot you don't want others to have. That isn't true in the case of easymode Ox, so there is no reason guilds would be farming him just because they can.
Same with Klaak.

Hecula wrote:

The loot off easy ox is duplicated off mobs that friends and family guilds were rolling the first week of the expansion and we've pretty much run out of seventh tier alts to give them to. There's honestly not even anything to use money on atm. I seriously doubt any hardcore raiders are going to go after easymode ox unless they happen to be rolling through when it's up.
As for the broader contested issue? Screw contested aimed at hardcore raiders. It's for a different game in a different time. They've never balanced the challenge v reward right. Lag has been the #1 source of difficulty they've provided for years, aside from getting bored people to sit on spawns. Just seriously kill off the hardcore contested raid mobs, banish them from your minds, focus on making challenging instances with awesome itemization. It's not worth the time spent half-assing a solution that will make no one happy.

I already gave them, but the reasons these will be dropped by the resident uberguilds are (in no partucular order):
1. Money/Manas
2. They're easy and can be taken down with much less than a full raid
3. ****blocking scrub guilds - always a fun pastime.
Your guild may leave them up Gaige but you will be the exception, not the rule. A lot of guilds don't want "scrub" guilds killing the same encounters. They don't want those names on a list right next to theirs. Their e-peens can't handle the idea that another guild killed a current-tier contested. It makes them all flaccid and small.
Of course it will all be reasoned away to, "well, we needed to kill easy mode to spawn hard mode (oh shucks, sorry scrub guilds, it's not our fault - it was designed this way - better luck next time .sadface)" when the time comes.
There have already been a ton of encounters that are or were affected by lag and have time or DPS limits - Gynok, Umzok, Gozak, Munzok etc etc. Only reason for the hard core push to have these changed is that you are forced to contest with scrub guilds and lag at the same time. But that's why they're called contested (and you can drop the whole different encounter BS because they're very similar - just hardmode has more stuff to deal with).

You might have a point if guilds were sitting around with nothing to do. That simply won't be the case - there's more than enough content to keep everyone occupied, or will be once Underfoot Depths and Icy keep are fixed. Going after things like Oxdaxius would have to be done instead of something else that's more meaningful, so it simply won't happen with anything like the regularity you think.

Hecula wrote:

No uberguild is going to go out of their way to block a lesser guild from the easymode encounters for the same reason they didn't bother with the domini, they aren't considered progression at all so theres nothing to block. If the easymode is up when the better guild gets there to pull hardmode yes they will kill it rather than wait around for a scrub guild to come kill it, it's the only way to get to the hardmode.
Money and manas are both a moot point as you wont make enough plat off that gear to make it worth your time due to being able to buy the loot off a merchant and "uberguilds" are swimming in manas already.
Just because something is easy to kill doesnt mean guilds will waste their time doing it. Obviously these mobs are a cakewalk now, so how many servers have this mob currently locked down by the resident uberguild? They could lock it down in a heartbeat if they wanted yet on most servers that isn't happening, so your theory is being dismantled everyday by top guilds currently ignoring easymode.
Again a fair comparison is if the scrub guild forms to kill easymode ox but poof he despawns because some dude just came and soloed a mob that despawns him. It's 2 different encounters that share a spawn and being able to tank and spank a **** mob to effectively eliminate the difficult version is ridiculous.

Hecula wrote:

1) For the nth time, nobody can even sell these items as you can purchase them off the shard merchant and they aren't very good. As far as manas go, I don't see anyone killing them just for manas.
2) Sure they're easy, but so is everything else this expansion minus a few hard mode mobs. That doesn't mean hc guilds are going to drop what they are doing and go kill something for 0 chance at an upgrade.
3) Your posts make it seem as though you've been harrassed or made fun of in the past by guilds better than the one you have been in. I'm sorry if that's the case, but I don't really know any guilds who play to block "scrub" guilds on anything.
I can say that Gaiges guild is not the exception to leaving up easy ox, I don't know of any hc guild who goes out of their way to kill it other than perhaps NPU. The only reason I say NPU also is because not a single other guild on their server has managed to kill the easy version, so they have to be camping it and killing right away because let's face it, the easy mode is easy enough for the most casual of casual guilds to kill. As to whether they talk down to "scrub" guilds on their server I don't know nor do I care, however I don't know a single other server who has a guild intentionally locking these easy mobs down simply because they are not worth it. I maintain my servers progression list and we have 4 guilds who have killed the easy mode ox. If this mob were changed so that you kill easy mode, it spawns hard mode, there would be 0 reason for any guild after the hard mode to kill the easy mode. The only time that would happen would be if there were nobody else around and they wanted to work on hard mode, which you get from killing easy mode. I know for a fact I'd stand off to the side and let another guild kill easy mode if it was guaranteed hard mode would pop and stay up when it's dead, and if the other guild managed to kill the hard mode then grats to them.
Basically you are wrong on all of your assumptions, and it's sad that you are so bitter towards guilds simply for being good at playing this game. Let me take this time to apologize to you on behalf of all the bad things that were done to you in years past in this game.

Gaige wrote:

I did, and they did. Would you like me to find it for you? Go back and read the first four posts in this thread. EVERY ONE OF THEM laments how the easy mode gets killed, and then people can't kill the hard mode. Grow up, and quit being a jerk.