Why didn't you parse that encounter and try it multiple times then. Perhaps it wouldn't have hit you for 50% health every encounter? About the part in yellow: When did they patch in and give us mitigation? Because you are saying we don't take more damage than them now. Sweet, I need to log in and test it out, playing with mitigation will be cool! Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 02-05-2005 01:50 PM
I'll post the whole 2 megabyte log file Every fight with that named went similarly, I shutter to think what it would've been like without mezzing the named. I've done this encounter repeatedly since patch with a plate tank of similar lvl and weaker armour, there is no comparison. Your experience tanking blues and greens (lvl 20+ mobs which AFAIK haven't been beefed up like 30+ mobs) really has no relevance to our discussion. Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on 02-05-2005 02:00 PM
Monks have shown proof time and time again, and you refuse to accept it. I personally posted my experience with my 24 monk and my 24 SK soloing the exact same mobs showing that my well-equiped and virtually max skilled monk is significantly worse off then my under-equiped and under-skilled SK. My personal experiences are all I need to know something is wrong.
Sure it is however I have tanked yellows, and have seen 40s tank yellows. You say that everyone knows that we tank worse, and have provided logs, yet I saw one log, and had the audacity to point out the flaws in it. Second there are several threads saying just the opposite, however sence they have the aduacity to challenge the self-proclaimed gods, they get flamed. People dont like being flamed so they just dont post, this makes this a bad community, if there willing to lynch thoes who oppose there views. However I am not afraid to stand up to the conventional wisdom, Galelo stood up and said the earth rotated around the sun and they put him in jail.
Mamaseeta My god man or woman whatever you are. Will you please post your lvl/stats/gear and some POSTIVE proof. If no please leave the flaming and trolling behind and not on the forums. Gage you arent going to win this battle. Even though you have shown valid info.Mama wont stop posting. You have some some hardcore proof. Where mama has shown nothing but flames and trolls. Please stop derailing the thread mama. Message Edited by Ralumenta on 02-05-2005 02:16 PM
You can flame me all you want, I don't care. I know the truth. Contrary to your beliefs, you haven't provided any evidence, pointed out any flaws, or done anything remotely constructive. Comparing yourself to Galeleo is, well, remarkable to say the least. Anyway, I can and will ignore your less than insightful posts It's obvious you don't have a very good grasp on this game and conversing with you is a waste of time. You can't tank nearly as well as a competent plate tank supported by competent group members, it just isn't possible. Sure you and other monks are still capable of tanking, like I said I am still capable of tanking as well and have done so, but the difference between us and the mitigators is quite large atm.
Well did some tests, My Guardian frined and I, we would solo the turtles in EL, no spical attacks, no HO, just seeing how long it took to get to 1/2 health. After several times we would reach 1/2 health on avarage at the same time, the monk tended to be a bit streaky, in taking hits, the guardian tended to be more even. However Guardians has about 500 more hits then I do so in the same time he hs actually taking 250 more damamge then I am. I spent two hours doing these tests, I feel I have a large enough sample to avoid anomalies and found out that SOEs "canned responce" seemes to be fairly accurate, you are more then willing to reject it as proof, thats everyones call. I am currently tanking yellow and orange ferries in EL, and not having a prolbem. I cannot explain everyones prolbem asside that there really is appearing not to be one.
I started this thread to do some constructive research about the monk class. NO MORE OF THIS STUFF: I want proof (when parsers and experiecnes are being posted) You are wrong Whatever I can tank You are not playing your monk right etc. This thread has one purpose. Its purpose to find out how the patch effected us negatively and how the devs should fix us. If you are not going to help out then leave this thread alone, you are not welcome to post here unless you are gonna be constructive. I want the DEVS to read this, arguing is not going to help. Thanks, GF
You are right Gangster... This picture illustrates the effectiveness of monk tanking at 40+. Nearly every encounter with a single ^^ involves 2k damage spikes once every 5 seconds or so, which in turn requires an immediate powerful heal. The main issue I found with this, apart from being risky and asking for a dead tank, is that even with spamming adept 1 taunts, buffing, and spamming DD, it is difficult to overcome the hate generated by the healer. A mitigation tank has a far easier time as he gets hit for far less and takes much less damage over time and requires less healing, thus he is more capable of keeping himself ahead of the healer on the mob's hate list. Thankfully, group encounters (of either 2 or 3 or more) I have found to be weaker and much easier than a single ^^. Also, even though we take a significantly greater amount of damage than a plate tank, with power regen buffs and good drink we were able to keep progressing through the dungeon without any pauses for mana. Btw, my spider stance, infuriating calm, and control breathing are all adept1, gear is all yellow/orange except helm and pants which are blue. Lvl 45 monk. Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on 02-05-2005 05:27 PM
While that is a nice picture, it does not show you taking mroe damamge then a plate class on the same mob. Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 02-05-2005 05:52 PM
Akureinoko 24 Dark Elf Monk 1120 Health 746 Power, 414 Attack 2544 AC, 48 Strength, 91 Agility, 43 Stamina, 40 Intelligence, 38 Wisdom. {Yellow con Sentry}Damage dealt 1201, Damge Taken 535, DPS 21.4, Missed 27 Mob Hits 9, Mob Miss 10 {Yellow con Sentry}Damage dealt 1218, Damge Taken 270, DPS 26.5, Missed 20 Mob Hits 5, Mob Miss 7 {Yellow con Sentry}Damage dealt 1213, Damge Taken 635, DPS 22.9, Missed 33 Mob Hits 8, Mob Miss 12 {Yellow con Sentry}Damage dealt 1214, Damge Taken 577, DPS 21.7, Missed 29 Mob Hits 7, Mob Miss 13 {Yellow con Sentry} Damage dealt 1209, Damge Taken 874, DPS 17.3, Missed 28 Mob Hits 14, Mob Miss 12 {Yellow con Sentry} Damage dealt 1211, Damge Taken 646, DPS 22.0, Missed 28 Mob Hits 9, Mob Miss 12 Average DPS against Yellow con Mob 21.96 Average Damage Dealt by Yellow con Mobs 589.5 damage Average hits by Yellow Con mobs 8.67 hits Average Misses vs Yellow Con mobs 27.5 Average Missed BY Yellow Con mobs 11 {White con Patrolmen} Damage dealt 1143, Damge Taken 795, DPS 24.3, Missed 19 Mob Hits 13, Mob Miss 7 {White con Patrolmen} Damage dealt 1137, Damge Taken 456, DPS 24.7, Missed 26 Mob Hits 7, Mob Miss 10 Acerage DPS against White Con Mob 24.5 Average Damge dealt BY white con mob 625.5 Average Hits by a white con mob 10 Average Misses vs White Con mob 22.5 Average Missed BY White con mob 8.5 Kayyin 24 Dark Elf SK 1133 Health, 704 Power, 370 Attack, 2323 AC, 64 Strength, 46 Agility, 45 Stamina, 43 Intelligence, 47 Wisdom. With Demonstation of Faith *Spammed while Tanking Group mobs {Yellow con Sentry}Damage dealt 1221, Damge Taken 297, DPS 23.0, Missed 9 Mob Hits 8, Mob Miss 4 {Yellow con Sentry} Damage dealt 1241, Damge Taken 250, DPS 19.7, Missed 9 Mob Hits 5, Mob Miss 6 {Yellow con Sentry} Damage dealt 1251, Damge Taken 273, DPS 23.6, Missed 6 Mob Hits 6, Mob Miss 5 {Yellow con Sentry} Damage dealt 1215, Damge Taken 164, DPS 24.3, Missed 4 Mob Hits 3, Mob Miss 6 Average DPS against Yellow con Mob 22.65 Average Damage Dealt by Yellow con Mobs 246 Average hits by Yellow Con mobs 5.5 Average Misses vs Yellow Con mobs 7 Average Missed BY Yellow Con mobs 5.25 With Demonstation of Faith *Spammed while Tanking Group mobs {White con Patrolmen} Damage dealt 1151, Damge Taken 89, DPS 18.3, Missed 10 Mob Hits 3, Mob Miss 8 {White con Patrolmen} Damage dealt 1131, Damge Taken 290, DPS 21.3, Missed 6 (ward at start of fight interupted by 190 pt barrage) Mob Hits 11, Mob Miss 2 {White con Patrolmen} Damage dealt 1272 (HT used 100ish extra damge), Damge Taken 226, DPS 20.9, Missed 13 Mob Hits 5, Mob Miss 6 Acerage DPS against White Con Mob 20.16 Average Damge dealt BY white con mob 201.66 Average Hits by a white con mob 6.33 Average Misses vs White Con mob 9.66 Average Missed BY White con mob 5.33 Differnce between Monk And SK again the same con mobs (Monk VS SK) (Formula used monk stat / SK stat) Versus Yellow Cons The Monk has 97% of SKs DPS The Monk takes 239% of the Damage the SK takes. The Monk Take 157% more hits then the SK takes. The Monk is 395% more likely to miss attacking a mob the the SK The Monk is 201% more likely to be missed by a Yellow con the the SK Versus White Con Mobs The monk has 122% of the SKs DPS The monk takes 310% of the Damage the SK takes. The monk takes 158% more hits then the SK. The monk is 233% more likely to miss attacking a mob then the SK The monk is 160% more likely to be missed by a white con then the SK Now you are going to say is how can the monk take more hits then the SK if he is more likely to be missed? Simple, the monk dual wields weapons meaning he has more chances to be riposted by the mob then the SK has. Now lets take a look at the SK vs the Monk with out the SK using one of his Defensive Skills, a 250ish point ward, Demonstration of Faith. {Yellow con Sentry}{DoF Not used} Damage dealt 1203, Damge Taken 476, DPS 25.1, Missed 6 Mob Hits 11, Mob Miss 2 {Yellow con Sentry}{DoF not used} Damage dealt 1203, Damge Taken 580, DPS 21.5, Missed 9 Mob Hits 12, Mob Miss 3 With out Demonstation of Faith *Spammed while Tanking Group mobs Average DPS against Yellow con Mob 23.3 Average Damage Dealt by Yellow con Mobs 528 Average hits by Yellow Con mobs 11.5 Average Misses vs Yellow Con mobs 7.5 Average Missed BY Yellow Con mobs 2.5 Versus Yellow Cons The Monk has 94% of SKs DPS The Monk takes 112% of the Damage the SK takes. The Monk takes 75% of the hits the SK takes. The Monk has 366% of the misses the SK has. The Monk is 440% more likely to be missed by a Yellow con then the SK This IS Right about where the Monk SHOULD be, but with more DPS and Less of a chance to miss the mob.
Well, here is my story dealing with this past patch (nerf). I am a 36 Monk, and well equipped with just about all the best gear that money can buy for my level, cept 1 or 2 slots. My unbuffed Agility is 120 with Feysteel Cestiis equipped and 128 with Oakwood Batons. I have tanked plenty of times in various places for the level 30-40 range (RE, RV, Obelisk, etc) before and after the patch and I have come to the conclusion that is Agility is now as useful as INT/WIS for us. Case scenario 1 - I was invited to an Obelisk group as DPS. But since the Berserker had to go take care of some things, I was assigned as temporary tank to plow stuff around the entrance. Everything outside of the tower was mainly yellow (Lv 39 or so) and there was not one fight where I wasn't struggling. The group was composed of 37 Mystic, 38 Templar, the Berserker and rest was DPS. After every fight, the Templar and Mystic was sitting around 50% each, and some fights were worse. I had all the defensive buffs running from Staggering Stance, Martial Discipline, Phin's, Face of the Mountain, and Sweeping Crane. This is a huge difference from before when I was 35 and only had 1 healer, and that was a Templar that was sitting around 70% after each fight. While I agree some fights should be harder, but not this dramatic. Here is another scenario... Case scenario 2 - The next day I was invited to a Rivervale group as tank since a member of the group had seen me play before and was very confident in my skills. The group was made up of a 37 Inquis, 38 Fury, 38 Assassin, 37 Brigand, 37 Swash, and me. Buffed up and started to pull mobs from the farm. The mobs here are about level 39-41 or so. I would say the initial first three seconds of the fight went just fine, until the mob started to not miss. The fight ended with both the 37 Inquisitor and 38 Fury with less than 30% power each since they literally had to spam heals to keep up with the punishment the mob was dealing. This continued on for about another 5 more fights before the Inquisitor declared that I was not a tank and left. The group disbanded and I was sitting LFG for the next hour. How does this compare to before the patch? A scenario before the patch - I was grouped with a 36 Mystic and 37 Templar and some low Mages (34ish). Both healers never dropped below 70% on any fight, unless there was adds. And this is with some low DPS members compared to the group described above which was with a 38 Assassin, 37 Brigand and 37 Swashbuckler. Case scenario 3 - Last night I was invited to a RE group as DPS. The group was composed of 32 Warden, 35 Guard, 35 Mystic (I think), 35 Berseker, Ranger (forgot level), and me. We [partially] wiped down by the pot where you grab the breastpiece quest. Only person that had died was the Guardian who was the main tank. So our next step was to plow down there and revive the Guardian and I was assigned as tank. The entrance trash (Lv 32 green ^^) wasn't too much trouble, they missed just like they had before the patch. But then as you progress up the ramp, and to the bridge, stuff started to con Blue now. Things then got a bit more difficult. I would say some fights they missed as much as a Green mob, and some fights, they just did not miss at all. Once we got up to the bridge, there was a pack of 5 Blue no arrow buffed mobs. I proceed to pull them and then received one of the worst beatings in my tanking career. Buffed with every defense buff I had, no specials missed, I would say about 75% of each mobs attacks went through and I was sitting in the red part of the HP bar most of the fight. The fight finished with both the Mystic and Warden OOP. This shocked the group since I was much better than this before, but we still moved on with me as MT. As we were progressing down the ramp to the miners/pot room, there were some Lv 39/40 Yellow con boars in the way. I pulled them without much hesistation until it gave me the second worst beating I've ever had the pleasure to receive. The thing literally punched and fly kicked me as if I owed the thing child support. Nothing missed, every special and attack went through which I had to blow Compress at one point or else I would have died, both the Mystic and Warden could not keep up. We won that fight, but by a small margin. Conclusion, while I agree "fixing" high concentration of Agility to mean less was in order, but what they really did was make Agility only worth a fraction of what it used to be. Tanking with 120-160 Agility should have not warrant those three scenarios at all, since this "fix" was meant for people with 200+. Then buffing mobs Lv 40+ with improved accuracy and all Lv 30+ mobs with increased status was really not necessary. As many suggested, simply putting a cap at which skills can be buffed up to would have fixed this. For example, in EQ1, all skills was capped at 255 or whatever, just apply same mechanics like that for Agility or all and everything would have been fine.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You missed the point completely. Anyone who has fought in Perma knows that a lvl 45 plate tank would AT MOST require one heal on a glacial golem with that much dps as I had in that group. At the moment that screenshot was taken, I was ready for my third or fourth. Seriously, I don't know why even respond to your comments (other than your arguments are exceedingly easy to refute), you're just a rebel without a cause.
Coterei. Very nice post, I like the difference between reposting, I allwasy tell people to use a big slow two handed weapon for tanking. However in your example The Monk has 94% of SKs DPS The Monk takes 112% of the Damage the SK takes. The Monk takes 75% of the hits the SK takes. The Monk has 366% of the misses the SK has. The Monk is 440% more likely to be missed by a Yellow con then the SK If I understand this correctly the monk is doing less damamge so the monster is around longer to deal dammage.
I'm level 47 monk and watching lower levels solo just as well as i do. Yesterday while fighting through the giant tunnel to perma, i watched a 44 zerker solo his way through level 46 giants just as fast, if not faster than I did. He killed mobs just as fast as I could, only he would finish with little to no damage while I would be anywhere from 20% to 90% health. I've watched 44 SKs and pallys solo the same level 48 solo mobs as I, and they still come out smelling like a rose, although taking slightly longer to do so. Somewhere in this forum someone mentions being a 47 monk and stepping aside for a 43 zerker to take tanking duties. This same thing happend to me, only this time it was a 42 zerker. If you arent counting, that's a 5 level difference tanking the same or better than I....not to mention the 1000+ defense difference. A 42 zerker, 46 Inq, and myself tested this later on level 46++ leopards. Taking turns, he consistantly tanks slightly better on level 46 mobs. At level 47++ the difference becomes more apparent. When it gets to level 48++ mobs there is no contest, he is the better tank. Another thing most people are missing is that this agility nerf affected our accuracy as well. Fighting solo mobs i seem to miss icy talon and lunging mongoose about 30-40% of the time, sometimes more. I've seen icy talon miss 3 times on the same blue mob. Go fight a Kromise Lookout or Glacier bear and have those two abilities miss for 2 rounds, your health wont be looking too hot in the end. Before this patch I had tanked just about everything from BB to Permafrost. I know many people that would have chosen me over another plate tank before the patch. Not because I took less damage (I didnt, I took more) but because I positioned mobs well, kept agro, controlled adds, held a steady pace, and kept people alive. I dont understand this nerf at all. Before the patch plate tanks did take less damage. What made me a better tank than some of them was the way I played vs the way they played. It had nothing to do with game mechanics. As of now, Ive lost all desire to play this game. If you're going to nerf one class, nerf the others equally. I shouldnt be watching level 44s run by me while I sit there and catch my breath. and just to save the inevitable questions about gear and so forth. I use all the best armor I loot or find on the broker or the fence. The lowest level piece is green all others are yellow. My abilities are all at least adept 1, save for diving pheonix and swooping eagle, which are appr 4. I use various weapons depending on what im doing, or just to change things up a bit. Mostly duel baton of the boar or the crook. Stats fluxuate but at the moment are 102 str 135 agl.
Your experiences aren't surprising, and they fall in line with what all of us are seeing in the 40+ game. It is unfortunate, but for now it's really not wise for groups to pick brawler tanks over plate tanks even if the lvl difference is big, unless you are fighting blues or greens. Take a berserker and a monk in the same group and the same lvl in the 40+ game, have them switch tanking duties, and you will notice there simply is no comparison in regards to who the better tank is. If we are going to be so much weaker in tanking, then we should be compensated with better dps or better utility. A berserker is capable of dpsing as much as we are, yet they are vastly superior as MTs. They take much less damage than us and dps just as well.
