Coldain Prayer Shawl Quest

Calthine wrote:

I am getting it, but as I said, its not an issue at all, let alone the issue here.
Mythical weapons were a result of Signature quests. Because the mythical weapon quest requires killing raid encounters, the quests are tagged as epic difficulty. However, they are still Signature quests. Fabled epic weapons, althogh called fabled by players, were never called fabled by anyone in game. It may have been used as an identifying tag by developers, but the word "epic" never appeared in game in relation to obtaining the fabled weapons that players denoted "epic".
These comments were made in a direct response to this:
Alvane@Unrest wrote:

... which is blatantly, demonstrably and unquestionably wrong.
All of that was in response to an off topic tangent by Alvane, which stemmed from me pointing out that although no need for crafting mythicals exists in game today there was also no need for an adventuring mythical before they were introduced, resulting in them potentially adding a crafting mythical item, which is required to complete specific crafting content that would be added either with, or after this quest (even though Trakanon was added to the game before Mythicals, but thats another story).
So my point remains, which to clarify is:
There is no reason that Domino could not implement the quest for the Shawl in an 8 stage Heritage Quest manner (as I would expect it to be), rewarding the Shawl as a legendary (or potentially fabled) item. From there, I see no reason it could not be carried on as a two part Signature quest to reward the 9th and final 10th shawl, that was a myth in EQ. The quest for the 10th shawl would need to be a Signature quest, as opposed to a Heritage Quest, because the 10th shawl does not actually exist in EQ, it was rumored to exist, but never did.
I see no better, more logical item to reward crafters with as a mythical item, as there are already myths surrounding the 10th shawl.
We all back on topic now?

Yaevin@Antonia Bayle wrote:

As i said before heirloom is fine. Commisionable will make the entire quest much less of an accomplishment. Making the entire quest commissionable would also not require you to have a 450 tinker/450 adorner/450transmuter. There is no such thing as Commission for adventuring. So requiring at least 1 transmuter/adorner per account is hardly asking for much.

Gungo wrote:

I fail to see the steps above being anything more than craft and delivery. There is nothing epic or noteworthy listed in this unless I am overlooking something.
I hope that Domino has the time to be a bit more creative with this quest line.

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

This is my issue as well.
Domino may well come up with something, I would not put that past her. However, many crafter oriented players will want this shawl handed to them on a platter... everything heirloom/commission, a few deliveries, and they get a shawl that was once blessed by the Avatar of Below.
I want to see something HARD. Sometime time consuming, something that many less dedicated players will start, but not have it in them to finish for months, or even years.
In short, I want something that actually reflects the player dedication needed to do this quest in EQ.
I have given one suggestion, and since no one else can offer anything even resembling hard in terms of crafting, I am sticking with what I came up with at first.

...............

Pervis wrote:

Hving done it in EQ1 years ago, it really wasn't as hard as you are deeming it to have been. In fact since my new EQ1 character reached that level range, I start it on her. The hard parts are the adventuring, getting the bits and bobs of stuff you need to A - make the Coldain required items and B - level your tradeskills up to a point you can more easily do the combines for the Coldain stuff. But.. nothing stops you from attemptingthe Coldain combines with a low skill, just the risk of failure and losing the stuff you "worked hard" to obtain.
In many ways the EQ1 Shawl quest series, for its purely crafting aspects, is similar to how soloing one of the tradeskill instances is in EQ2.
To reflect a similar effect as the EQ1 Shawl quests, the EQ2 version could have side quests (repeatable) to for the chance to obtain each of the no-trade components needed. The reason I say -chance- is because in EQ1, most of the shawl bits were uncommon or even rare drops from whatever targets you had to kill, requiring you to slaughter many (many many many in most cases). Whether each final combine for a stage allowed you to attempt it with your own skill or through commision really isn't a big deal, honestly, though it should have a risk of losing the components completely, just like in the EQ1 version (hence why the side quests would have to be repeatable).
Frankly, though, I hope it does allow you to do your own combines and uses the actual crafting class skill. Someone who wanted to have the best possible chance of succeeding on each combine -could- change class for each stage and level up the applicable skill. Those who don't want to change class would have to do it with a 50 or 100 skill (depending on the combine). I hope, too, it has at least 9 stages to reflect the 9 classes of EQ2 crafting with a stage for each.

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Crafting based quest are suppose to be CRAFTING and delivery. Thats why its CALLED tradeskills and not adventuring.
The reason why its harder then most is because it requires YOU to craft the items. It requires YOU to level adorning, tinkering, transmuting, Gathering and a lvl 90 tradeskill.
Furthermore step 3) requires a jboots type quest where you have to run to each location in a set period of time and save groups of coldain.
Step 4) requires you to explore and trap 1 or more overland zone npc's for thier resources.
Step 5) requires you to harvest or purchase at least 2 rare resources (and velious has its own unique harvest nodes)
Step 6) requires you to explore and PERSONALLY find a quest only related harvest node located in the contested dungeon.
Step 7) requires a seperate side quest for adorning, which should entail its own unique resources for additional exploration of velious.
Step 8) requires a group based tradeskill instance. As well as a special tinkered craft.
Whats noteworthy about this suggestion is it requires YOU to do the crafting on MOST of the combines instead of making other people do the crafting. It also should require ALOT of exploration and resource gatherings instead of extraneous dialogs. Also a Jboots style quest in the newer LARGER eq2 zones might actually be a bit fun.

Rijacki wrote:

Now this is something I could be happy with.
Have 9 side quests, each of them requiring a combine similar to those found in tradeskill instances, only harder. The combines take place in an instance, with a success lockout of 18 hours, and a failure lockout of 6 days 18 hours. Set the recipes to be hard at 450 skill, potentially possible at 50, but at 100 skill they are considerably easier, though still very difficult.
This gives players a reason to change classes at least three times, makes it so the quest is probably faster if they do change, but does not force them to do so. It means that failing a combine will stop your progress in the quest for an entire week, a week you could use to change classes if you wished to have a much better shot at it the next week, as well as a better shot at two other combines.

Lot of addicted crafters want a quest that nobody but them would do.
One lady want a chance to loose randomly, weeks or work, another want it to require 8 crafting classes (prob at 90), the third wish the request to require you to chance profession (and raise it to 90) 8 times.
I hope that domino (if she ever consider such a quest) will do something a bit long but funny and designed for the core of the plaers, not for 6 retired ladies that can play 18 hours a day 365 days per year.
The Eq1 quest was a total joke, imagine if when converting your mythical you had 20% chance to loose it (due to some magical instability) and that in such a case you would have to restart from the start (epic, t1 raid, vp etc ...).

Pervis wrote:

Your idea of fail conditions are really.. umm.. skewed.

Pervis wrote:

I'm just going to throw this out there. Call me a heratic if you want but...isn't this suppose to be fun? I've herd of fun before, I've had fun before. The idea here are getting more and more extreme and loosing all sight of fun but heading straight for fustration.
I'd rather have a long and lore driven quest than some grind-fest where we can loose based on a single critical failure with no chance to recover. Think about it.

Meirril wrote:

Fun is subjective.
I despise solo questing. Hate it with an absolute passion, yet I have done it to level up in both RoK and SF. I did it, not because I enjoy it, but because I enjoy what comes after.
In TSO, how many dedicated raiders did you see without their mythical weapon? Raiders had them not because they enjoyed the quests, but because they enjoyed the reward. The 10 seconds when you finish those quests is well worth the time and effort put in to them. This is a feeling that has not been seen in crafting in EQ2, and is a smaller version of the feeling in EQ that people got when getting the shawl.
Rijacki wrote:

Actually, that fail condition is carefully considered.
The idea is for it to be a means to slow progression of the quest down (similar to how tokens work in slowing down obtaining gear). As long as you keep succeeding, you are able to get one update a day. Unlike other instances with hard lockouts though, instead of getting a shorter timer on a fail, you get a longer lockout. This is the part where changing your class may make things faster. An example:
[Using original class/sub-class terms, as per the original game manual] A player getting to this quest will likely do the logical first thing, run the part of this quest for his sub-class. Once he has done that, a feat that should be almost guaranteed successful, he then runs the quest for the other two sub-classes in his class over the following two days. On the next day, he tries to do one for a totally different class, and fails, he now has a week before he can attempt any of the updates.
In that week, the player decides to change his crafting class to a sub-class in a totally different class than his current, in order to help him get the next three updates. By the time his week lockout is up, he is level 80 in his new class (I would be an advocate of making 80 the required level for these combines, perhaps making the Earring being equipped a requirement for zoning in). Being level 80 in a new class, one he does not have any updates for, he spends an hour each over the next three days to get those updates. Obviously, he gets them without further issue.
For the last three updates needed, he sees that he has a good amount of tradeskill equipment for each sub-class. He decides that he will make an attempt at the next update, because the other option is just leveling up anyway, and that would take about as long as the lockout anyway. He makes his attempt, and after a good amount of time, and a hard fought for combine, he walks away successful. He repeats this on the last two updates, ones that he has tradeskill equipment for as well, and is then done with this stage of the quest.
It would mean that no one is forced to change tradeskill classes, but it remains an option to be considered. It means things like player skill (attentiveness, and potentially reaction time) and crafting equipment play a real roll in this quest, but again are not required if a player is willing to change classes.
It means a player that just sits there banging their head on the wall every week hoping to eventually get the combine finished will take years to do the quest, but all that is needed in order to do it is a little investment of time, whether that be getting crafting equipment or class changing.
It also means crafters in a guild in a well stocked guild have an actual advantage over crafters that are not.

Pervis wrote:

Your idea of a fail condition is skewed because you are completely leaving out the concept of fun and substituing it with punishment. Because you don't like quests really isn't a good reason to want something in game that will brutalise any player and take away any possible shred of "fun" possible.
We get that you think the shawl quest should take years for any but the players most willing to do a 24-7 grindfest (which translates to an encouragement to use a 3rd party afk crafting bot).
You completly and utterly mistake time sync for effort.

Rijacki wrote:

No I didn't, I gave players the ability to chose between time sync or effort.
Time sink option: level up as each crafting class (total of 3), get updates.
Effort option: get and use tradeskill gear from tradeskill instances.
Both are valid means of progression the suggestion I posted above, and both were present in the example I gave. If you want to focus on one option that players are given, instead of looking at what possibilities were presented, then good for you.
Its not like uninteresting grinds have never happened in this game, I mean the harvesting quest wasn't just a mind numbing grind, was it...

Pervis wrote:

That "feeling" you mentioned is also subjective. A lot of peeps got excited when they finished Proof of the Pudding. Our guild att ran several crafting "raids" to offer to anyone on unrest the various parts. It was Fun and we all WOOT for everyone who finished.
The TSO crafting timeline is a solo venture - a bit different, yet in our guild today, peeps still get excited when they achieve their evac! And yeah, we all WOOT for everyone that does.
As for raiding, yeah, in our guild att, folks formed groups daily to run and help peeps through the various epic quests on their way to the fables and mythicals. Everyone pitched in. When a raid was formed, first question on the guild forums was "Who needs xyz mobs for their mythical? = Sign up!" Lists were kept. Everyone got a big WOOT when fabled was completed and when mythical was completed.
Today, our guild WOOT everyone who gets not only their fable but the epic rep of the mythical into a T-9 spell. Peeps still get excited over accomplishments and help each other to achieve them, too.
So, yeah, that "feeling" you mentioned is seen not only in crafting but adventuring - today.

Alvane@Unrest wrote:

Indeed.
I would think the best idea is to provide content for people that consider either of them fun, don't you?

Pervis wrote:

Betrayal and class spec changes suck for a few reasons. Betrayal - you are forced in some cases to change class and lose your masters. For those people who are completionist, like myself, I am not about to betray for the opportunity to continue to pay SOE to allow me to do the 2000+ quests I cant do as my current alignment when I run out of quests to do, I will simply stop playing and hang up my scrolls and cage the pets.
Tradeskill respecs suck because you lose your recipe books. Again, as a completionist player I would not consider doing this quest if it required me to respec the class at the cost of losing my recipe books.
What this does is only further the argument for allowing us to multi-class our crafting toons. I have yet to hear a good argument against it. I am not sure if the architecture of the system would currently allow it or not but I for one wouldnt mind getting rid of several crafting only toons and re-level the other 8 tradeskills on my primary toon.
Now that would be fun IMO. Gain all 9 tradeskills on a single toon would be an epic achievement. Just my thoughts on that anyway. Oh yeah, dont forget to tell Domino what a great idea multi-classing crafting is, she absolutely loves that /sarcasm off

Pervis wrote:

^^ This

Domino, please make this quest about crafter effort and not about "who you know".

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Making it so this quest allows you to multi-class as a crafter would actually be fairly cool, tbh.
Its not something I would expect to see happen (I would expect to see my original idea happen before this), but it would be awesome.
Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Yeah, heaven forbid social connections enable a person to do things faster in this, a social game.
It would be totally unprecedented, too. I mean, its not like having a friend/guildmate of each tradeskill class will help make PotP go any faster or anything...
Oh wait...

See Pervis, now you're being hypocritical. You make suggestions like having this quest involve requiring crafters to level to 90 on every tradeskill one after the other to make things worth the effort, but it's okay to give a "pass" in certain situations that you deem appropriate.
I never agreed with the interdependence of PotP and I don't agree with anything that involves more people just to make it "harder" because more people does not in and of itself make something harder. It might make it tedious or annoying, but tedious and annoying are not harder. They're just tedious and annoying.
I don't believe in being held at a stage because of an artificial inclusion of a "social" aspect. I also don't agree with your idea of leveling to 90 one after the other because I agree with Rijacki. That's not really effort, either. It's inclusion of tedium and annoyance. It also just encourages botting to finish things.
I support crafter quests involving crafter effort and not having to fall on back tired timesinks to make it worth doing. I want to be engaged and challenged every step of the way, not bored and frustrated.