LOL, I'm not doing it right? I'm simply amazed you are still arguing with me over this issue, because it is clear to me that you do not understand the basic fundamentals of DPS and therefore should not be putting anything like this silly formula out at all, which you also do not understand. We are NOT talking about "damage", deary. We are talking about damage per second. Even more fundamentally we are talking about cast order and how to pick one. Cast order is in most circumstances dictated by DPS, damage per second. This is indirectly related to total damage over an entire encounter or zonewide, but they are NOT the same thing. The total damage over the "duration of the fight" may or may not represent your highest DPSing spells, it all depends on the nature of the particular encounter or that particular zone. For example, for me as a wizard, Firestorm is sometimes near the top of the parse zw when there are a lot of AOE encounters in that zone. It is relatively fast recast and can do a lot of damage when there are a lot of targets in range. Does this mean it is one of my highest DPS spells in general and that I should pick this spell over other spells that don't parse as high even in that particular zone, such as Thunderclap? The correct answer is NO. Not only is total damage over an encounter or zone completely circumstantial, it is also as I said only indirectly related to DPS. It is more directly related to how often you press that spell button. This also does not necessarily correlate directly with DPS. For example, you could just sit there and spam your Crystal Blast nonstop, and it would end up being the highest parsing spell zw by doing the most damage, but your overall DPS would be absolutely abysmal. Why? Because the DPS of that spell is mediocre, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with its recast time, which is very fast. Yes, cast order is indeed about which spell to prioritize over others WHENEVER THEY ARE UP. You pointing that out to me does absolutely nothing to validate your contention that recast time is a necessary part of DPS calculation, but in fact illustrates that you have not yet grasped the basics of this game and are in fact directly validating my point. When we are talking about a "cast order", we are asking ourselves "which spell do I pick next?" In my earlier example, which you still do not seem to understand, Megaboomboom is a massively high DPS spell, probably the highest of any spell/CA in the game if it were ever introduced, but its recast time is also probably the lowest of any spell in the game. You could only cast this spell once every 15 days. Does this recast time figure into its DPS or its position in the cast order? Not a whit. Whenever this spell is up, you prioritize it over pretty much any other spell that's also up, and that would include your vaunted Crystal Blast. Why is that? That is because recast time means NOTHING to cast order. If every mage got Megaboomboom, it would be the highest spell on every mage's cast order (except maybe yours, I guess). It would also be down almost all the time, but this does not affect the order; in other words, it does not affect which spells to prioritize on the cast order list. The priority depends on DPS. DPS depends on total damage divided by the time spent casting it. You should (in general) pick the spell that's highest on the cast order that is currently up. Recast time affects how often any given spell will be up, but it does NOT affect which position that spell should occupy on your theoretical cast order list. And the order of this list is what we are talking about. Even if every last one of your spells were down, your cast order would remain unchanged. If you fell asleep for a few seconds then woke up, and saw that a couple spells had popped back up, which would you next choose to cast? The one with the faster recast? Or the one that did more damage per time spent casting it? Tick tock tick tock. Do you still not understand?
It is because she's not doing it right. This "formula" would be laughed off flames in a far more ruthless manner if presented there. At least here she's being told why.
Basically, the OP is saying that a 10 second cast time ability that does 5 damage will do infinite DPS (divide by zero). You'd never, ever cast EB or anything else if an instant recast direct damage ability existed and you listened to the OP, even if the instant recast ability did terrible damage. Obviously, that's not correct. As others have explained, the formula you want is: Efficiency = Total Damage / (Cast time + Recovery (not recast) time) That formula makes sense because it essentially calculates how well you're using your casting+recovery time. (To get an accurate picture of what your priorities should be, you would also want to consider the buffs, debuffs, and procs [ect.] that you get during your primary playstyle.)
Having the recovery in the formula is a waste of time. If your recovery times are all the same (which they are for the OP's conjuror) then adding them to the cast time does not alter the casting order in any way, shape or form. It would at best give you a warm fuzzy feeling thinking that the number is actually a good representation of the DPS for a spell. This entire conversation proves that there is nothing better than simply knowing your class and group. You can do all the math you want, but the megaboom spell shouldn't be cast as soon as it's up, it should be cast when time warp is up. Also, spells with very fast casting and recast can produce a lot more DPS when you take into consideration potency procs and other temp buffs going on in the group/raid. You can't really factor that in a spreadsheet.
Recovery is important. If you don't account for recovery, then skills with shorter cast speeds will always be favored in your theorycraft more than they really are performing in practice. Only if everything had the same (up to a margin of error difference) cast speed, then and only then would recovery not matter (if recovery was also the same regardless of skill). At that point the only variable would be the instant damage, so there would be nothing to calculate for instant effects. It would only be a matter of sorting highest damage to lowest. As it is, cast times are different, and so recovery is important. The skill can't be considered 'complete' unless you are ready to do the next thing, and in order to do that, recovery must be accounted for, and not discarded. Cast time (with recovery time) and damage as the sole determinate variables is fine if its an instant, but if its a triggered or DOT effect, then what? With the facts that DOT's occur largely in the background, require a window of time to achieve completion, and sometimes have greater effiency earlier in the window than later, it's a bit more work to guess how well they do and where they should fit. Because they occur in the background, they really have to be favored more than instants, even if their efficiency on the surface is lower especially if the window of opportunity to achieve their peak efficiency is available (enough time remains to do the heaviest part of their damage). The question is how much lower before you favor certain instants before those same DOTs. On the same token, triggered effects, or effects with triggers, require you to do certain things to make them work. Something like that is really hard to calculate or guess as playstyle and particular situations factor heavily on these. The tooltip on exaimine information on trigger rate is a basis, sure, but in practice, events and buffs don't often align with that basis. Something might say it has an average rate of fire of 2 times a minute, but in practice, through measurement, you find its upwards of 10 times a minute. The only way to really get a grasp of how they fit for you is to try it and measure it. Measure it alot. Then you might be able to make some assumptions about how it fits and how much it contributes.
Sorry I have to disagree with the Recast time not effecting Efficiency... Fiery Annialation has a Cast time of .5 sec, rec of .25 sec, recast of 4 sec, and a duration of 12 sec at max 3/4 of the damage happens within the first 4 sec ,,, 1/4 happens in the last 8 sec FA is one of the highest DPS spells for a conjuror so there are many situations where casting FA before its duration is up is better DPS then waiting full duration. In your formula Total Damage only accounts for the full duration of the spell, but in order to get true Total Damage you need to figure out many different full durations due to when the spell is Recast and computed with additional Cast/Rec times. Recast effects the efficiency of FA and it would take a seperate or more complex formula to compute it Im not saying this works with every spell but you have to take every spell in its full complexity to get a true efficiency.
If you check out my last post you will see why your formula will not give an accurate Combined_Damage. Think this might represent a little more accurate decription - Combined_Damage= Initial_Damage + (Recast Time x Ticks per Second)Average damage per Tick
This thread is a good example of why no one bothers to write good, accurate guides for this game's classes/mechanics.
I totally agree. The fact that this inane gibberish of a formula is still being debated is a sad testament to how far this game has declined. One more time, for each spell you need to calculate (total damage) / (cast time + recovery time). "Total damage" on paper is theoretical and in game is going to depend on many possible circumstances, which is why I have said time and again that increasing DPS by figuring your highest DPS spells is only the beginning of good DPS. For example, a DOT would likely not be the best spell to cast on a mob that is about to die. "Total (actual) damage" in this case would underperform by a lot compared to "total (theoretical) damage" calculated on paper by including every last tick of that DOT. An AOE spell would likely not be the best spell to cast on a ST mob (in most cases) compared to a ST spell. Every AOE spell has a different DPS efficiency depending on how many targets there are and requires a separate calculation for every additional target. For example, Blast of Devastation's DPS will vary wildly depending on if there is only 1 target compared to if there are 8 targets (because the numerator i.e. "total damage" changes), in which case it would move up the DPS ranking (i.e. cast order) for that particular in-game moment to outrank almost every other spell I have. The finesse of this game comes in because in game you don't actually ever know for sure if you actually have "8" targets within the damage radius. You don't actually ever know for sure how much longer a mob will last to make that DOT definitely worthwhile over a ST spell or over another shorter duration DOT. You learn to feel it by experience. Actual cast order, that is, which spell currently up you should be casting, changes constantly during an encounter and depend on possibly several factors, such as range, number of targets, duration, temps, need to joust, upcoming script, etc. This feel for the game comes after years of pushing buttons and staring at the screen to see what happens. Again, none of this has to do with "recast times". Do NOT be swayed into taking "recast time" into ANY calculation of DPS efficiency no matter how many times OP or her minions try to push this nonsense; wrong repeated a thousand times is still wrong. How often a spell is up has in general little to do with whether you should cast a given spell over another if they are both up, i.e. it has no bearing on picking cast order in (almost) every circumstance. The only times where I take recast into account is if there is a circumstance or temp spell that would induce me to cast a less efficient spell over a more efficient spell; but note that this would just be me prioritizing other factors over DPS, not that a recast time had somehow increased any spell's DPS. It doesn't.
Mystere,,, Personal Attacks and Degrading remarks are petty and a testiment of your character. Combined_Damage= Initial_Damage + (Recast Time x Ticks per Second)Average damage per Tick..... For spells that have a shorter recast time then duration, this formula can compute the damage output for a specific amount of time. Take the Combined_Damage and apply as Total Damage in the formula below. Efficiency = Total Damage / (Cast time + Recovery time) I cannot make it anymore simple than that. You do not have to use this Recast formula if you do not wish to,,, it's just a tool for computations if you have a spell in that catagory and wish to know if you benefit from casting the spell before all the ticks are spent.
Old, and brigand, but when I first start playing a toon I make one of these, after which I just wing it. I use cast, recovery, tooltip values, crit bonus/crit bonus mods from aa, and in this case, class specific proc from prestige. I have exponential dot ticks for necro/sk somewhere but I'm not going to bother explaining those. B column =SUM(PRODUCT(T3;V3);R3) C column =SUM(PRODUCT(U3;V3);S3) D column Cast speed of spell, nothing special. E column Recovery speed of spell, nothing special F column Crit bonus mods to specific CAs from AA points G column =SUM(L3+F3) H column Blank space I column =QUOTIENT(PRODUCT(SUM(QUOTIENT(SUM(B3;C3);2);QUOTIENT(SUM(O3;P3);2));G3);SUM(D3;E3)) (aka, average of min/max (+average of TP if applicable) divided by cast+recov multiplied by total cb mod = efficiency) This has the downside of applying the CB mod via AA to Thug's Poison procs but I don't care enough to fix it since it's not a big deal L column CB modifier, taken from game. O column TP low tooltip, taken from game. P column TP high tooltip, taken from game R column Min tooltip hit, taken from game. S column Max tooltip hit, taken from game. T column Min tooltip dot tick, taken from game. U column Max tooltip dot tick, taken from game. V column Number of dot ticks, taken from game. Z column =SUM(I3;0) (Just a column to sort by)
You making something gratuitously wrong "simple" doesn't change the fact that it is still gratuitously wrong, nor does it change the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Calculating the "damage output for a specific amount of time" for a DOT (regardless of whether its recast is shorter than its duration) involves calculating the average tick damage for tick numbers 1, 2, 3, etc. (each of which you can obtain from ACT itself) and then summing the averages according to how long you want the DOT to run. Say there is some DOT spell that runs for 12 seconds with an initial tick followed by a tick every 2 seconds. Tick 1 is the initial tick, Tick 2 is 2 seconds later, Tick 3 is 4 seconds later, etc. If you want to know the DPS output of this DOT over 4 seconds, you add the average damage for each of the first 3 ticks together. If you want to know the output over 6 seconds, you add the average damage for each of the first 4 ticks together. This is not rocket science here. This becomes your numerator ("total damage"). The denominator is still (cast time + recovery time). In other words, here is the actual way to "compute the damage output for a specific amount of time": DPS efficiency over 4 seconds (3 ticks) = (avgtk1 + avgtk2 + avgtk3) / (cast time + recovery time) DPS efficiency over 6 seconds (4 ticks) = (avgtk1 + avgtk2 + avgtk3 +avgtk4) / (cast time + recovery time) etc. This calculation can easily be simplified for spells that do not have increasing or decreasing damage ticks over time. Hopefully you don't need someone to show you how that's done. Note that "recast time" is NOWHERE in the calculation of DPS efficiency. The number obtained from these calculations should be the number used to help determine cast order. If whatever spell you have left after unleashing this DOT on the mob has a lower DPS efficiency than this DOT's 3 tick DPS efficiency and you already have the option to cast this DOT again.... you cast this DOT again and overwrite its remaining ticks instead of casting whatever lower DPS efficiency spell you have available. BTW, take a look at Buffrat's formulas. Do you see "recast time" anywhere? LOL Also, please go to flames and try and post your "formula" there. You'll get a very honest and unfiltered response from all the eq2 veterans, I promise you. Edit: I raid with a pretty good conjy in my group. Just looking at her parse, she's definitely NOT casting Fiery Annihilation every 4 seconds on any individual target. Ever. You're doing it wrong just sayin
DPS efficiency over 4 seconds (3 ticks) = When the spell is recast , call it what you will but is the same thing. If you recast the spell before the duration has ended the efficiency changes,, that is a function of when you Recast it.
I'm pretty sure most people here have gotten it by now if they hadn't before. Multiple veterans have come here and explained the same thing multiple times in multiple ways. But since this is not a "no greenhorn left behind" forum, I will just let you feel free to continue using your formula and to continue chain-casting Fiery Annihilation.
Damage from Tonights raid, notice FA has two damages per initial/tick due to AA's. Fiery Anniahilation .5 cast, .25 rec, 4.0recast, 2sec tick, duration max 12.0... ,,, initial hits of 190k and 140k average equaling 330k per tick, with DoT hits of 15k and 10k average equaling 25k per tick. Crystal Blast 1.0 cast .25 rec, recast not calculated , no duration... Average of 210k Combined_Damage= Initial_Damage + (Recast Time x Ticks per Second)Average damage per Tick..... FA with 4sec recast combined_damage= 330k + (4sec x .5)25k combined_damage= 330k + 2 x 25k combined_damage = 330k + 50K combined_damage= 380k FA full duration combined _damage = 330k + (12sec x .5) 25k combined_damage = 330k + 6 x 25k combined_damage = 330k + 150k combined_damage = 480k Efficiency = Total Damage / (Cast time + Recovery time) This is one FA recast at 4sec efficiency = 380 / (.5 + .25) efficiency = 380 / .75 efficiency = 506.6 This is one FA full duration efficiency = 480 / (.5 + .25) efficiency = 480 / .75 efficiency = 640.0 This is Two FA casts one full & one recast at 4 sec efficiency = 860k / ( 1.0 + .5) efficiency = 860k / 1.5 efficiency= 573.3 This is one Crystal Blast cast. efficiency = 210 / (1.0 + .25) efficiency =210 / 1.25 efficiency = 168 This is a Full FA and a Crystal Blast efficiency = 690 / (1.5 + .5) efficiency= 690 / 2.0 efficiency = 345.0 A 4sec FA has an efficiency of 506.6 vs. A Crystal Blast with a efficiency of 168.0 As you can see, most of the FA's damage is on the Initial Hit,,, Guess I'll continue to cast my FA when it refreshes.
I bet all those numbers are available to EQ2U, if Feldon reads this. A page like this would be a significant boon from the site!
So, were you trying to cheat here and hoping nobody would catch you, or what? First you say that "Combined_Damage= Initial_Damage + (Recast Time x Ticks per Second)Average damage per Tick" Then you bust out with "combined _damage = 330k + (12sec x .5) 25k" So, then.... which spell were you referring to has a recast time of "12 seconds"? FA last I checked has a recast time of 4 seconds. What your equation actually spells out is how much damage to expect from a DOT given a certain duration of the spell, whether that be 4 seconds or 12 seconds. All you've done with the first calculation is to set duration = 4 seconds, which happens to be the recast time of FA, but this does not mean "duration" = "recast time" in all cases, as you yourself humorously demonstrated above without even realizing it. Or did you realize it and were hoping I didn't? Whatever the case, your equation logically understood, AGAIN, has nothing to do with "recast time". Why? Because DPS has nothing to do with recast time. Yours is merely an equation to calculate expected DPS based on a given duration of a given DOT. Your equation is also inelegant, because it is unable to accommodate DOT's that increase or decrease their damage exponentially over time, because your equation assumes a constant tick damage amount. Trying to compensate for that by using "average damage per Tick" to try and smooth things out will be misleading for those types of DOT's because anything less than a full DOT duration will result in different averages, potentially massively different if the duration is cut off early on. Getting back to the OP's formula, you attempted to connect DPS to recast time with your formula that mistakes recast time for duration. Your formula has nothing to do with OP's formula incorporating recast time even after you set your equation's duration to equal recast time. OP's formula remains as big a mistake as it was when it was conceived, and as I said, anyone who still wants to use it, deserves to. Whoever is following this discussion and didn't already know what many of us have been saying in this thread should do themselves a favor and do it right, with the right formula. Yeah, you do that, tough guy. Would love to see your parse, BTW.
First, I clearly state that 12 sec was a Full Duration. Im not trying to be controversial about this... Let me change all the wording for duration instead. I can change the wording to account for UT and Harmonization and meet in the middle with wording. Total Damage= Initial_Damage + [When Spell is Recast (Total Amount of Ticks / Max Duration of Spell)]Average Damage per Tick All I'm doing is showing a little of the work that goes into determining Total damage. FA with 4sec duration Total Damage = 330k + [4sec (6 / 12)]25k Total Damage = 330k + (4sec x .5)25k Total Damage = 330k + 2 x 25k Total Damage = 330k + 50k Total Damage = 380k FA with 6sec duration Total Damage = 330k + (6sec x .5)25k Total Damage = 330k + 3 x 25k Total Damage = 330k + 75k Total Damage = 405 FA with 8sec duration Total Damage = 330k + (8sec x .5)25k Total Damage = 330k + 4 x 25k Total Damage = 330 + 100k Total Damage = 430k FA full duration Total Damage = 330k + (12sec x .5) 25k Total Damage = 330k + 6 x 25k Total Damage = 330k + 150k Total Damage = 480k Efficiency = Total Damage / (Cast time + Recovery time) This is one FA recast at 4sec efficiency = 380 / (.5 + .25) efficiency = 380 / .75 efficiency = 506.6 This is one FA recast at 6 sec efficiency = 405 / (.5 + .25) efficiency = 405 / .75 efficiency = 540.0 This is one FA full duration efficiency = 480 / (.5 + .25) efficiency = 480 / .75 efficiency = 640.0 This is one Crystal Blast cast. efficiency = 210 / (1.0 + .25) efficiency =210 / 1.25 efficiency = 168 If you want to compare the efficiencies to know if its better to cast a spell early or let run full duration you have to compute for the loss of damage from the initial cast. This Is how you do that. Full duration damage - Recast damage + comparison damage = new total damage Computed difference of full duration and 4 sec duration, then added to CB 480 - 380 + 210 = 310 This is a Crystal Blast with damage difference added efficiency = 310 / (1.0 + .25) efficiency = 310 / 1.25 efficiency = 248.0 Computed difference of full duration and 6 sec duration, then added to CB 480 - 405 + 210= 285 This is a Crystal Blast with damage difference added efficiency = 285 / (1.0 + .25) efficiency = 285 / 1.25 efficiency = 228.0 Computed difference of full duration and 8 sec, then added to CB 480 - 430 + 210 = 260 This is a Crystal Blast with damage difference added efficiency = 260 / (1.0 + .25) efficiency = 260 / 1.25 efficiency = 208.0 Notice that casting efficiency continues to drop as duration continues. The reason this happens is because most of the damage is frontloaded with the initial hit. This clearly shows that its better to cast the spell at 4 sec then at 8 sec. This will also accommodate DoT's that increase or decrease with ticks over time. You could clearly see the efficiency difference for each tick if you applied the work to do the math. Now you need to make sure the spell you are casting will out perform the spell that you wish to cast. FA 4 sec duration has a 506.6 efficiency vs Crystal Blast /w adjustment equals 248.0 efficiency Fiery Annihilation at 4 sec duration out performs CB with adjustments, and should always be cast over a CB. And I parse quite well
Sorry, but even with this massive wall of text you are unable to hide the fact that your claim of recast time affecting DPS efficiency (i.e. OP's claim) is just as wrong as the first time you posted it, especially now that you've gone ahead and admitted your error in mistaking recast time for duration in your formula. I see that you've now changed it to "when spell is recast", which is just another way of saying "duration as set by an overwrite". Also, TL;DR. Even if you managed to show that it is worthwhile to cast another FA at 4 seconds compared to casting CB, you haven't shown at all that you should even be casting another FA 4 seconds after a first FA, as opposed to some other higher DPS spell. Like I said, based on the parses of my fellow raiding conjy, this certainly does not seem to be the case. Why don't you go ahead and prove me wrong by posting a parse on some named along with a screenshot of an ACT breakdown by time (you know how to do that, right?) showing how often you are overwriting your own FA's. I wonder if that raiding guild you recently joined would appreciate you admitting to chain-casting that spell during a raid.
