This is why i enjoy my Bezerker. The ability to be useful in many different ways. NOT just a tank. Very nicely summed up :smileywink:
"Notice infernus006 totally dodged this part of Kaberu's post" Once again Aonein, making false assumptions about me. I didn't "dodge" anything. I ignore statements that I don't feel are worth replying to. But since you insist... "If Tanks were only meant to tank, why does one of the best abilities a Brigand has for DPS rely on him taking aggro?" That is irrevelvant. It doesn't make them tanks any more than any other scout in the game. Since you mention it I happen to know that Brigands also get a taunt. Does that make them tanks though? Nope, it doesn't. "If Tanks were only meant to tank, why does a Bruiser have flanking/rear attacks?" Well I don't know but there are many people who still feel that Brawlers are not good tanks and so they get stuck filling DPS slots a lot more than we do. But then they also tend to have more DPS than us too. "If Tanks were only meant to tank, why does a Paladin have an ability that lets him transfer his AC" There are many people who feel that Crusaders make better support tanks than actual main tanks because of that, among other reasons. We are Warriors and we are the ones that get the most pure tanking abilities at the cost of utility and DPS. Just remember that I am not the one who is complaining about anything. I am happy with this class just the way it is. If I wasn't then I would not be playing it, unlike some people around here. I don't know how many posts I have seen on these boards by people who do nothing but whine that we don't have enough DPS or utility on raids outside of the MT role. Of course they fail to either realize or accept the fact that our true place in raids is in the MT spot. I agree that our group buffs are pretty useful but there are people who don't feel that they are worth anything. Take the STR buff, for example. Yes, our STR buff is quite nice. But from what I understand STR is so easy to cap on raids as it is that it's not really that noticeable since so many other classes have STR buffs of their own. Then we have the group health regen buff. From what I understand it's not very useful in raids either either. Especially when there's a cap on the amount of regen you can have and other classes have regen buffs that are better than ours and the mobs are hitting for over 4k a pop so regaining an extra 100 or so HP's per tick doesn't make a whole lot of difference there. The one thing thing we have that can really be considered a decent utiltity on raids is the group berserk buff. But then haste is capped too right? So maybe it gives a moderate boost in DPS for the scouts. I agree, it's something and every little bit matters. But that is the only one thing we have that's considered useful in raids outside the MT role. Am I complaining about it though? No I am not. Because I realize that we are not a utility class any more than we are a DPS class. I have accepted my role as a tank and I am happy with it. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-13-200604:26 PM
"neither of us are suggesting we can compete number for number with normal DPS classes, just that you can lean that way noticebly." So then you admit that our DPS is nothing more than half-*****. Thanks, you just made my point. What I am saying here is that tanking is the one and only thing that we can do really well. And you cannot argue with that. "maybe off-hand tanking is a form of tanking, but it is certainly not unique to Tank classes (stereotyping aside)." In most cases it is though. Because in most cases healers don't like healing scouts. And I doubt that you are going to see many scout classes off-tanking any adds, at least not for very long. And most healers I know will not tolerate that behavior. Mages can keep mobs occupied by using root and mezz and they can steal aggro at the end of a fight and not even get a scratch on them. That doesn't mean they are tanks does it? "What I've noticed with dead-set Tanker players is that if the mob turns on the scout at the last second (even if the mob is at a sliver of health) it's almost garunteed the taunt flare will go off. They are so dead set on aggro control that sometimes they overlook the whole situation." It's instinct for a good tank to fire off a taunt when he sees someone else's name pop into in the implied target window. I agree at the tail end of a fight it's pointless and a waste of power and you're better off just using a stun. Not because the person who got aggro is actually in danger at that point though, oh no. It's just to save face and to keep anyone else from noticing that you lost aggro. Because people look down on you for that no matter what the case is. Sad but true. "If you are playing the Berserker the way you want to and I am playing the Berserker the way I want to and Aonein is playing the Berserker he wants to etc... what's the problem?" The PROBLEM is when people who are playing their Berserker the "wrong" way (ie trying to be a DPS when they really are not) come to this forum and whine because they can't get what they want and they beg for the class to be changed so they can while totally disregarding everyone else who is actually playing the class correctly and likes it the way it is and doesn't want it to be changed. THAT is the problem. As I've already said like a hundered times now I do not care how you or Aonien or anyone else chooses to play their class. The problem is when they want to have it CHANGED so that I can't play it the way I have been for the past year. THAT is what makes me angry. And to think that someone atually bothered to level their character past 60 when they were really so unhappy with it to start with is just really sad. But the saddest part is when they come here and expect the class to be changed just because they wasted so much time playing it the wrong way and are just now realizing it doesn't work and they are too lazy to start over with a new class like they should have done ages ago. "Maybe we should be asking why it bothers you that we found a different way to play?" Maybe you should actually start reading my posts so you understand what the problem is here instead of just making wild assumptions and accusations that make no sense and/or just listening to certain individuals who like to spread lies about those they disagree and drag others onto the forums to try and support them when they see that they are in a losing battle.
I find this a funny topic, I find alot of zerkers on my server think there dps over tank. And in most cases think that they are a gimpy tank, but I think thats more in how they have equiped there chars and what traits they have gone for. I can tell you now I am in a raid guild with a zerker that pushes his dps as hard as he can and at times he will in just the right situation make the top 5 on the list. With that said in no way are Zerkers a dps class and in no way do they compare to wiz's much less warlocks on AoE fights. Pre KoS our Wiz/Warlocks were able to punch out 3k-5k AoE dps at that time from the parses Ive seen and the ones we have posted all over the warlock forums zerkers were lucky to hit 1.5k in that perfect situational setup in PPtR. Now fast forward to KoS, Its pretty easy now to hit 8-10k+ aoe dps in places like this with sustained 2k + dps on regular 3-4 mob grps, our zerkers useing ramp/openwounds are good about putting down around 500-800 dps on the small grps and 2k on the 15 + mob grps in no way does that come close to scratching what Wiz/Warlocks can put up.
I agree, there is an awful lot of nonsense getting talked in this thread. We are tanks, we use DPS to control or agro. Like I said before, in the right group set up even as main raid tank wit h1handed and shield I will finish top 3 or 4 on the DPS lists almost all the time on raids. There are many so called zerkers on this thread talking crap about tanking. I would hate to have them be MT in my group never mind in a raid. In my experience any zerker who thinks hes not a tank is normally just a bad tank end of story. He's not DPS and he's not utility, hes just a bad tank. Yes I have read all the "if you only tank then you don't know how to play your zerker properly" posts. What a lot of horse [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that is! Plate wearing, same branch as guardian warrior = tank. Go learn to tank, everything else is a bonus, accept it.
One very stark reality was shoved in my face yesterday. The frankenstein named in Halls of Fate (Ish-something) hits harder than anything I've ever seen. Failed two times tanking him (just barely) because he's smacking me around. Now I had 4900 mit before my 30s buffs (so averaged about 5300 during the fight), around 58% avoidance and 8100hp. I got walloped. The response from my group? "Man up. We had a 68 guard tank this the other night." Now I consider myself a good player and that was just tough to hear. Does that mob really exploit the differences between the guard and the zerk? Message Edited by KhayosAD on 03-16-200607:28 AM
I have been smacked around hard by mobs that the guardian in my guild can tank easily too. I have also tanked mobs easier then the guardian could. It really depends on the mob your fighting, the group makeup and their experience with having a berserker tank for them. I have had healers that couldn't keep me alive for nothing and I have had healers that play the same exact class that can keep me alive without much effort at all. The difference is that they now how hard I'm going to be hit and they compensate for it before I start taking alot of damage, not after I'm already below half health, but these are healers I have grouped with a lot. They know they are going to burn alot of power fast, but the fight will be over pretty quickly. Even still, there are certain mobs that will just beat the poop out of me. Not that we won't beat them, but it takes a ton of effort to do it and maybe a wipe or 2 to adjust. I'm not saying that guardians do or don't tank better then berserkers. What I am saying is there are alot of factors that determine how easy or hard it is to tank a mob and many of them have nothing to do with the tank class itself.
In HoF specificaly your healers have to be on the ball, its not the tank a Paladin/Sk can tank that place just as easy as a guardian. Ive done it with all 4 tanks even a Monk and Bruiser. If you get trauma on you and the healers aren't cureing it immediatly look at your mitigation drop down below 2k your basicly a caster tanking at that point, its not the class its your healers. And On Ish whatever sp. that guys name is his Vanquish will 1 shot just about any tank Ive seen it hit consistanly for 14k, there was even a post about this guy over in the combat forums, best way to kill this guy is to just stun/stifle him on a rotation shut him down and hes a easy kill.
I agree it is the healers that matter the most in Halls of Fate. A chanter helps too. I have gotten all the way to Sothis with a Templar and Warden whom were really good at their class. But just last night I couldnt get passed the first named in the place and that was with a Fury and Mystic. Class combination helps. At 67 I nearly got sothis tanking outright. Which now I heard there is another tactic which can be used. I was 69 last night tanking that first named and couldnt hold agro let alone live long enough for it to die. The healers have to be on the ball, not chatting up a storm and not doing anything but what they are suppose to for the fight. And yet I get blamed for the group failing. I don't think so. I was doing what I needed to. For now on in halls I bring Templar and Chanter in tow plus any other healer to add who I trust to be on the ball. I can hold the named there. But only if the healers know what they are doing.
