Berserkers are tanks!!!!

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Halcat, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Infernus006, your a group tank right, do you even tank raids? And what raids have you tanked?
    And just to clarify any misunderstanding that may be there, 99.9% of the time, im tanking in a group sceanrio, as im sure majority of us do.
  2. ARCHIVED-JSMINTAMPA Guest

    1. No zerker types this much

    2. No zerker whines this much

    k thx bye
  3. ARCHIVED-Aonach Guest

    This is one of the strangest threads I've read in a while.
    Two fundamental points about zerkers, we are on the same base class as guardians and zerkers wear heavy plate armour.
    As a raid MT for my guild I have always considered myself as a tank, even though I have constantly tried to keep my DPS up wherever possible. Thte reason I keep my DPS is because my taunts aren't as good as a gurdians. Our reason fro DPS is to help us taunt, it's not so we can fill DPS role. I do very good DPS in groups and on raids but never ever at anytime have I classed myself as anything other than a tank.
    I have tried on numerous occasions to get a slacking role on raids as DPS and even though I constantly finish in the top 4 of DPS parses on raids my guild just laugh at me and make me MT again.
    In playing 65 levels in this game as a zerker, never, I repeat, NEVER have i ever been asked in agroup or a raid to be anything other than the MT or very occasionally the MA.
    DPS helps us keep agro, it doesn't make us a DPS class or even a utility class. If you want DPS roll a wizard or if you want utlitly go play a bard in EQ1 ;)
  4. ARCHIVED-ToyGooch Guest

    Hey guys, this is chronicbomb 67zerker for The Last Word - Crushbone,
    Zerkers are good tanks next to Guardians and yea the dps is just to keep agro, not like shadowknights and pallys that use amends and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spells like that. One thing zerkers are good for are raid dps just because of str. I use the kettleleaders Katana and it hits for about 1800 per swing so im comming out on the top of the dps list next to brigands and wizzys. Only thing about zerkers though is its good to have tanking gear and dps gear because with plate the stats can be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and never what you want. Zerkers are tanks and good ones at that.
  5. ARCHIVED-Kolorean Yoritomo Guest

    I like to call the pre-nerf days, the "Good Ol days." Back then, and the class description, was a plate wearing, offensive tank, who could defensive tank in a pinch. We sacrificed defense for more offense. Pre-release, I pictured us as a plate wearing, cannon, that could take some damage, and be just under the rouges in damage output. Upon release, I loved my Beserker, I loved being on raids, having to be very careful about my aggro.enjoyed the jokes in Vent about aggro switching and seeing me and fellow Zerackus, who were not being careful, to get smoked.

    I am almost 63 now, I feel stale and watered down. I feel that "Tank" is now the only reason I will get a group, and if a group is looking for a player, if they have a tank already, I am done for. Before, we could get into groups because we dealt damage. Don't get me wrong, there are still times I do enjoy my class, I just feel very dissapointed about the changes.
  6. ARCHIVED-Kaitar Guest

    I think Aonach pretty much summed it up well IMHO.
  7. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "Pre-release, I pictured us as a plate wearing, cannon, that could take some damage, and be just under the rouges in damage output."

    And that's pretty much what we are right now. We are in the upper first teir of the DPS ladder and Rogues are teir2 I believe. With Rampage and Open Wounds on we can do some serious damage to grouped mobs. But since those abilities can only be used every 3 minutes they can't really be considered a constant source of DPS. And what happens is when certain people start to notice that we're doing more DPS than we "should" they whine to the devs about it and then we get nerfed. I don't want our DPS to be nerfed any more than the next Zerker. But our ability to do good DPS is much too shakey to be relied upon by others when it's really needed. At least tanking is something that's always been there for us and always will be, so we have a solid place to stand in this game.
  8. ARCHIVED-Sambora Guest

    And OW + Rampage use to be much better before the last LU when Rampage use to proc more :smileymad:
  9. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    ^ Not really. Because even before the last LU Rampage would only proc up to 10 times and then it would drop off. It's only good for 10 procs, no more than that. That has always been the case. When I use Rampage I still get all the procs out of it and I never have the spell still on me after the mobs are dead. So it's still working just as well as ever IMO. However, what is missing now is the extra procs that we used to get on top of the Rampage proc, like from imbued weapons. Before the last LU every time Rampage procced it would generate another chance for our imbued weapons and such to proc on top of that and now it doesn't do that.
  10. ARCHIVED-Kaberu Guest

    I'm not sure about other zerkers, but I'm not usually spamming Rampage/Open Wounds as the only way to get high DPS... I might use Rampage one fight, Assault/Slaughter/Stunning the next, Open Wounds on the Third and back to Assault/Slaughter/Stunning, etc... it helps keep DPS up (and aggro when coupled with taunts) as well as letting you stay low on mana consumption. Of course, that's only if there are three or more mobs (usually more).

    Now while you can claim that our DPS is to make up for taunting you can also look at it this way... Scouts have aggro reducing abilities that allow them to scale up damage some more while staying low on aggro generation. Berserkers have no such abilities and so our damage is moderated more to compensate. Just ask a Ranger to turn off his aggro reducing buff to see the comparison.

    If a berserker is not the MT in a group, he can still safely use his AOEs while the MT focuses on any particular big nasty. If we draw aggro from the minion fluff, it doesn't matter much as they don't hit hard and we can usually regen enough and DPS enough to drop them before they might be considered a problem. Its probably even better if we draw aggro considering our reactive damage comes into play (as well as our reactive health regen which helps keep us up).

    Whether main tanking or not, it's obvious that a berserker was meant to be hit. Scouts on the other hand we're not meant to be direct targets (aside from brigands with their ruse for example).

    If we fill in as melee DPS, we need to expect to take hits from multiples but we are durable enough to actually take them. Being able to take the hits is a tradeoff with increased damage (compared to a scout), but we still do alot of damage at the penalty of not being able to lose aggro so the main tank can regain it (again, compared to a scout).

    If we were to consider ourselves for a DPS role, we'd essentially be "fluff" killers and not just mediocre ones at that. We'd be bad mo'fo fluff killers!

    Berserkers, the baddest mo-fo fluff killers around!

    The big difference of course is we can turn right around and also tank nearly at 100% the level Guardians do.

    If Tanks were only meant to tank, why does one of the best abilities a Brigand has for DPS rely on him taking aggro? If Tanks were only meant to tank, why does a Bruiser have flanking/rear attacks? If Tanks were only meant to tank, why does a Paladin have an ability that lets him transfer his AC? Heck, what would even be the point of abilities like Intercede or Vehemence (both of which assume you aren't taking hits)?

    While noone suggested such a rigid definition of tanking, it does pose an interesting question... how many people are a little too stuck on stereotypes?
  11. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "I'm not sure about other zerkers, but I'm not usually spamming Rampage/Open Wounds as the only way to get high DPS"

    Stacking Rampage and Open Wounds is the only way for us to get really good damage that is actually comparable in some way to Warlock AOEs. And you can't hardly "spam" them when they only last for 30 seconds and have 3 minute reuse timers. I don't always stack them either. I actually prefer to space them out myself. But then I'm not trying to be a DPS. And if you ask anyone on the DPS forums here about Zerker DPS they will tell you it's too high as it is and needs to be nerfed. :(

    "Scouts have aggro reducing abilities that allow them to scale up damage some more while staying low on aggro generation. Berserkers have no such abilities and so our damage is moderated more to compensate"
    Scouts have aggro reducing abilities because they do mega DPS and if they don't use their aggro reducing abilities they WILL get aggro, even from a Zerker that is spamming all of his taunts and CA's in offensive mode with Rampage and Open Wounds stacked. And our damage is not moderated to compensate for the fact that we have no aggro reducing abilities. We don't have high enough DPS to warrent having any aggro reducing abilities because we are tanks and our job is to keep aggro, not to try and get rid of it.

    "If a berserker is not the MT in a group, he can still safely use his AOEs while the MT focuses on any particular big nasty. If we draw aggro from the minion fluff, it doesn't matter much as they don't hit hard and we can usually regen enough and DPS enough to drop them before they might be considered a problem. Its probably even better if we draw aggro considering our reactive damage comes into play (as well as our reactive health regen which helps keep us up)."

    What you just described there is known as "off-tanking", which by the way, is still a form of tanking.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-10-200604:20 PM
  12. ARCHIVED-RufusDeMarko Guest

    I always use Vehemence on our aggro stealing wizzie or healer...just so he can have a chance of survival when I lose aggro to him/her (cuz it's bound to happen) Is this not what that skill is for? Did I totally read that ability wrong? =( Oh man, if I did...there goes my credibility.


    I didn't sign up for this class for DPS...I wanted to tank and be a meat shield. I figured the "extra" DPS that we got will help when soloing because I'll do that occasionally.
  13. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    ^ Don't worry, you are playing your class correctly. I always use Vehemence on the most vulnerable mages in my group based on their level. Sometimes it's better to give it to the smallest one if the bigger one is good enough at controlling his aggro. I also use intercede on casters when I need them to root or mezz a name in case I'm not able to aggro the adds off them in time and right after someone is rezzed in case something happens to pop on them while they are medding.

    IMO it's not a good idea to bother casting Vehemence on another tank unless you actually have a lot more avoidance than that other tank or if you're in a raid and the MT's AGI is already buffed past the soft cap. In most cases in normal groups though I don't think it's a good idea. Because when we have Vehemence on ourselves it gives us a very large AGI boost and when another fighter casts their version of the spell on us it causes ours to drop off since the spells do not stack with each other, and that effectivly debuffs our AGI by quite a lot, making us lose a lot of base avoidance of our own just so we can have a chance to use someome else's. FYI the Ad3 of Vehemence gives 65 AGI, which is nothing to scoff at IMO. And it only gives the person you have it on an extra *chance* to avoid attacks based on the other person's avoidance. So if the other person has the same or lower avoidance than you (and you are the MT) then it seems hardly worth it to sacrifice 65 AGI points thus lowering your own base avoidance just so you can have a chance to use his instead. On the other hand, the extra AGI you get from your own Vehemence buff provides a constant guaranteed boost to your avoidance that doesn't waver. This is one of the reasons why I try to avoid grouping with other tanks that insist on trying to keep their buff on me. If they want to use Intercede on me, that's fine, but in most cases that is not necessary either and just puts extra stress on the healers.
  14. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Notice infernus006 totally dodged this part of Kaberu's post and went directly for what he only knows how to reply to....which is, drum roll please..........dun dun, TANK.
    100% agree with you about people being very close minded and stuck on stereotypes man, very well said.
  15. ARCHIVED-Kaberu Guest

    Ya, and the thing is Aonein, neither of us are suggesting we can compete number for number with normal DPS classes, just that you can lean that way noticebly. But try to mention that and as you said... dun dun TANK!

    As for infernus, maybe off-hand tanking is a form of tanking, but it is certainly not unique to Tank classes (stereotyping aside). Brigands are one of my favorite scout classes to group with for just that reason. I pull the mob and grab initial aggro, as the mob gets low, a good brigand (in my personal opinion) can snag aggro and finish it off with the rest of the group while I go pluck the next mob. Heck, even my Ranger buddy is good at timing his aggro theft so he can pull it for the last bubble or two of health (depending on how fast the mob is dying) giving me time to go grab the next provided he's not the one pulling random mobs and tanking them for the first few seconds.

    What I've noticed with dead-set Tanker players is that if the mob turns on the scout at the last second (even if the mob is at a sliver of health) it's almost garunteed the taunt flare will go off. They are so dead set on aggro control that sometimes they overlook the whole situation. Sometimes I don't even bother with a mob when it gets low, I just pop Slay on it and go grab another while the group finishes off the stunned mob.

    Now being a dead set tanker isn't a bad thing, it's just one of several different ways to play a Berserker. If you are playing the Berserker the way you want to and I am playing the Berserker the way I want to and Aonein is playing the Berserker he wants to etc... what's the problem?

    Maybe we should be asking why it bothers you that we found a different way to play?
  16. ARCHIVED-Zingsterfah Guest

    I created a Dirge to add to my group when I box. After KoS , I have to admit I am starting to get back into the interest that I 1st had with this profession. Of course watching my guild Leader Blast through raid zones on raid nights brings my interest in playing the Tank role once again.

    Anyways... after adding my dirge together with my Zerker, it has become a compliment to both toons.

    But to stick to the post... zerkers are good tanks I admit and have been except for that one time when DoF came out and I had to re-adjust all over again .... but after a while it all becomes second hand once more.

    Peace
  17. ARCHIVED-Araos Guest

    Well, I have played my zerker since I first started playing. He is my main and always has been. I can tank, and some say very well. I believe so as well. I can also dps just fine too. Not saying I will ever be up there with pure dps classes. No. I am saying I can do it though and well enough. I built my zerker on an offensive platform. I focused on my damage output and it works well to help hold agro while tanking and when I am not tanking my buffs and dps only help. Love my AEs and dps hands down. When I am not tanking I have noticed that many times I have done enough dps to mistakenly out agro the guardian or paladin who had amends on someone else. So much sometimes they dont regain agro unless I back off. I use a 2hander most of the time except when tanking more difficult mobs in which I go to my shield without hesitation. I been going with dps/haste on the AAs too so that only aids me. I use my defensive abilities of course when needed also and most of my arts are adept3 or better. On a recent parsar of dps with my offensive stance off (because chanters on the raid complain that it breaks mezzes) and due to the mob melee werent allowed in range due to a nasty AE, so i had to use my bow some, I still ranked with good numbers. Which to me says a lot about my choices and I am happy with them.

    Zerkers are verstile tanks hands down and it pains me when people overlook our potential. But we can do multiple roles. Not the best at everything but we are tanks at our core BUT because we are so versitile I say it leaves room for many differernt types of berserkers. With different play-styles. And the new AA system only builds on that.

    Araos Ragingbear
    67 Berserker /61 Provisioner
    Order of the Ancients
    Lucan De'Lere
    (bleh, had to edit a few times due to typos)
    Message Edited by Araos on 03-11-200608:10 AM
  18. ARCHIVED-Steelheart Guest

    If i had wanted to be a pure tank i would have been a guardian.
  19. ARCHIVED-Perfection^ Guest

    Aonein:
    Dont talk about stuff u dont know anything about.

    WIZARDS DO NOT GET RIFT WARLOCKS DOES!
  20. ARCHIVED-Pegesus11 Guest

    We are Tanks this is a given. We are dps this is also a given

    9 times outta 10 i tank every group im in. 2 times outta 10 i tank every raid im on. However if im not tanking on a raid i am put into the Melee dps group. We buff str massivley and we also haste the dps group. We are able to maximize our dps out greatly if put into the right group with the right buffs. I appear on parsers in the top 6 9 times outta 10. I'm usally in the top 2 if its a massive ae fight and i have rampage/open wounds up. We by no means are the top tier of DPS we are secondary. Assassins are the top tier along with Conjs, Wizards, Swashies and bruisers.

    Anyone who says we are merely tanks is really not playing there class properly and losing out on alot of fantastic gameplay. Anyone who says we should be in leather gear and running around pretending we are assassins needs to reroll one to find out the real difference.

    Personally i think we are the most well rounded class in the game. We Have Plate we can tank nearly everything in game effectively, we can dps and we can support others with your utility traits. What more do you want.

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