Beginning of the end for Brigands? to a much lesser degree Swash...

Dreyco wrote:

Ohh, thats nice, can brigs share some assassin stuff?

Why not give Traumatic Swipe to Summoners.

BaronVonPitviper wrote:

Reminds me of a line from Highlander where Kurgen says "He cares about these helpless mortals?"
I never thought I would say this, maybe someone should slap me but please rehire Lockeye

Tanlliel wrote:

I think they need heals. Maybe a rescue-type aggro grabber.
Of course with that, they'll need some defensive temp buffs.
Might as well give them some spells to replace debuffs.

What class was this again?

Kasar wrote:

One thats not played by a dev with a clue

There is no use or reason to get upset or pissed off over this yet. Save your energy for when the changes have been announced so you can direct valid, constructive input at them. Everything that is planned is still months out so enjoy the game and wait for a post from him outlining whats coming.
One thing I will say since we know debuff changes are planned is this: I hope Aeralik takes into account one of his previous comments to swashbucklers about our debuffing ability.
Aeralik wrote:

I want our DPS to stay our primary role but I hope with these debuff changes the debuffs we have (or will have after the changes) become more noticable and desireable on raids then they are now. This applies to both rogues and summoners with your proposed changes.
That said, I'll wait and see what is planned for the rogue class before I get too worked up over whatever is happening. It sounds like a revamp is taking place (to some extent) for the rogue classes based on his comments.
Aeralik wrote:

Where did 2 ways communications go?
As I remember, the previous producer promised 2 ways communications when big changes is done.
I'm afraid that the original fighter revamp(old GU51) will be introduced silently without 2 ways communications as Brigand will be nerfed.
Was "2 ways communications" a bluff?

Well at the rate we are losing players..we have lost 40% of the player in less then a year....seem at every fix we lose 5 to 10 % in 2010 we have enough to form one raid on all the servers.....Keep it sony and DEV ////the econmy is bad enough your makeing it worse...Please fill out proper Unemployment papers in few months....

Not again...
Just came back and now this lol

I agree with Odeius, lets wait for the details.

I'm semi excited to see what they do to the wisdom line. If they revamp it like they did with the brawler str line I'll be excited to see this. Right now it's only useful for leveling up, and it is stupid easy to level now so it's pretty much worthless.

Aleadra@Najena wrote:

Dont hope for too much. Its Aeralik designing the brigand tree and not the assassin tree.

I'm a swash , but on another note, he was(I'm fairly sure) the one who redesigned the brawler STR line, and I was very happy with revamp on that when my main was a monk.

Dunno just cross your fingers and hope for the best, because honestly it really can't get worse, I don't know one high end Brig/Swash that uses the wisdom line, so any rework of it's current state should be a plus.

The bottom line here is that after the fighter revamp debacle, SOE promised to work more closely with the player base and - shock of all shocks - listen to the playerbase.
But this sounds so much like the same mess all over again. An idea that has merit at 10,000' is twisted around by devs that seem to have no clue how the game actually works, into something that doesn't fix the underlying real issue, and is leaked in such a negative way... oh yeah, you brigs, you're getting nerfed soon, not sure exactly how... oh, yeah it may make two of your three class defining CA's **** but hey... will tell you more in 6 months... have a nice day.
Awful PR, awful way to handle your playerbase.

I recently came back to EQ2 a few months ago (after about an 18 month hiatus) and have enjoyed levelling up my Brigand. Levelled slowly to learn the class and am just hitting RoK now. Really have enjoyed Brigand, and knowing that Dispatch would be useful in raids, balanced of course by all the aforementioned downsides and previous nerfs.
I left EQ2 just after the release of RoK, back when my main was a conjurer that I enjoyed playing until it too was nerfed to oblivion. I figured I would give EQ2 one more chance, and intentionally chose a class that was NOT overpowered, specifically avoiding the flavor of the month ShadowKnights, bards and chanters, and picking one that had previously been nerfed enough that NO ONE complained it needed nerfing.
If this goes through, I am gone for good as I have just had enough. This has to be the least thought out change to date by Aeralik, and that's saying a lot. I know this is obvious to everyone, but I will point it out again for SOE. I am a Brigand. I debuff. That IS my class-defining role. I give up a lot for that ability. There are MANY, MANY suggestions on improving conjies/necros on the summoner forums. There is a reason we all think this idea is plain stupid -- even the conjies.
My previous toons were a warden and a fury created at launch (and which I played in beta). Along with the conjie, they are now just lv 80 crafting alts, after their classes became completely undesireable after poorly thought out changes to game mechanics. My only other toon was a baby Monk. I am tired of giving EQ2 second chances, and I refuse to play an assassin just so I know I am safe from the nerf bat. I realize that the threat of me leaving means nothing to SOE but thought I would add my 2 copper as to how much of a bad idea I believe this to be, speaking as both a conjurer and a brigand.

I'm horrified, just...god...
Whats left for brigs? We do less dps that other melee scouts, have no meaningful aoe output, no meaningful ranged dps, no hate transfer, no group buffs, very limited self buffing. Our dps really requires us to stay put and batter away at the mob steadily. We do not have any quick, massive damage we can do, and then run away, and still maintain a high dps.
All these limitations are a trade off for two main abilities we sopposedly have (had). AR allowed us to stay in close, and slug it out with the mob for dps. We didn't need spike dps or ranged dps, since we didn't joust. Plus, we were the debuff kings and we were wanted not because we have massive damage, buffs, or hate transfer, but because we increased everyone else's dps.
Then AR is nerfed to pointlessness without any class rebalancing. Now, it is the eq2 equivalent of Russian Roulette, and too dangerous to use in a lot of fights. Of course, lots of other classes have a useful AOE resist now so it is not a big deal that brigs don't really have it any more, right?
Unfortunately, with AR as it is we have to joust and stay at range like everyone else...and we don't have the proper set of abilities to do that particularly effectively.
Bring on Russian Roulette and some repair kits...or watch our dps take a pounding.
But, we were told, we are still THE debuff class so we would certainly still be desired in raids. Of course, this is entirely because we make EVERYONE'S dps better and that will no longer be the case. I suppose they can change the mechanics to put the cap on mit debuffing WAY higher and other melee classes would then really, really like us, but I doubt it. Given that we are already at the point were additional mit debuffing is pointless, it would have to be a significant change and I don't see it happenning. Does anyone take Dispatch Defence to increase mit debuff on Dispatch? Between our mit debuffs and everyone else's there is no point to improving the amount of debuff.
Even some of our secondary raid utilities are less useful since raid mob effects and encounters seem to be designed to ignore Traumatic Swipe or Enhance Battery and Assualt. Whats a brig to do?
Now we will be useless to caster groups in raids, and it will even hurt us in caster heavy instance groups since we will add nothing to the group other than our dps.
I have a suggestion...
Remove the Swashy and the Brig classes entirely.
Do away with them.
Replace them with a single class with the mitigation debuffs you want us to have and proper balance of offensive abilities, without the drastic restriction we have now. Delete AR and give us some ranged dps and aoe dps, and at least one massive dps hit we can use while jousting. Give us some sort of hate transfer as well.
Yea, right...
IF what you end up doing is striping the brigand of yet more abilities without remove the significant penalties the class has built into it to balance the very skills you are crippling, well...

I'm concerned about a group, especially a pug.
Brigand has debuffed all resists which are physical resist and magical resists.
But in a pug, won't Brigand and Mages become incompatible?
For example, in a pug which has SK, Wizard, Illusionist, Brigand, 2 Priests, what merit will Wizard and Illusionist get from Brigand because Brigand debuffs only physical resists?
Until now, in such a case, Wizard and Illusionist can get merit from Brigand's Dispatch.
But after Brigand's "nerf", what will happen?
I'm concerned.

I got a few questions... ok...
So one of out Ca's that debuffs magic will be no more? If it's taken away, will that not lower our DPS since that's a backstab? I say this since our Epic weapon, and Shadow endline add to our back attack's damage. Also if they plan to replace such CA with hurrican, will it replace the dmg lost on a single target? Just some concerns since its going to happen... with or with out our thoughts in mind.
Another question I have is whats stoping raid forces to not just use Melee dps once the Debuffs are spread out? I see nothing beyond caster support classes being need for dps, since melee dps has the upperhand on Auto attacks. Unless I been lead to believe in wrong info. Auto attacks mixed with the right buffs can put out more DPS on a reliable constant than your adverage caster. My point is proven more so with SOE stating that auto attack is higher than they want, but don't intend to ajust it soon. Another point for this question is scout's ability to survive. WE do get more health than casters. Beyond chanters, if more than one raid caster dies, the raid dps will drop very fast.
On the other hand... the make up of the raid could swing totaly in the other direction to all caster dps. Though in my opinion that would be a rather squshy force. In such case what would the point of a brigand, or assassin(s)? Brigands have nothing to offer casters in any way shape or form beyond spell mit-debufs. Same applys to assassins, and swashys, and dirges with my knowledge. Thats just for solid Dps, not the few support buffs they offer.
As I see it from what little info thats out there. Is that the changes are going to one-side alot of aspects of the gameplay. Right down to groups trying to take on a hard task.

Also I would like to state that I would love to see our buff called Theives Guild to become a group buff, with a 5% hate reduction to all in group. Unmoding rouges and summoners..... if you realy go there... /sigh
A increase to, Amazing Reflexes, our personal AOE blocker by 6% with a 2 second bonus to its duration.
Aoe immunity to Band of thugs, with a reduced reuse timmer and better Aoe attacks. "yes they do aoe the encounter" This C-art could become our Aoe damage or at least a part of it....
Replace the debuff portion to Will to Survive with something more effective thats defines a Brigand. I think changing this to reduce our reuse timers on our combat arts by 25% if under 20% health would be an interesting example.
Replace Noxious Toxins with a Crit Bonus and Crit Damage to poision(25%max) or something along the lines beyond Nox-mit debuff. Since we're not the caster debuffers nolonger... /sigh
Allow tramatic swipe to work on more AoE's.
What I see that defines us as a class right now at the moment. Is our t2 dps, our mit-debufs, personal aoe proc buff, and Double up. Please try and keep it this way but not limited to!


Copied from someone's notes at the Fan Faire
Epic and Mythical weapons will stay level 80. The unique effects of the Mythical weapon will be usable perhaps as a clickable item, charm, or mythical slot, but it will not be your primary weapon at level 90 as the green and blue stats will be scaled down 33% or more........................ make it a myth slot with the player ability to turn on or off that slots apperance!
just a few sugestion..

I thought of types of debuff of Rogue and Summoner
Debuff
A. Swashbuckler(debuff of melee attack)
1) dps
2) accuracy
3) melee crit %
4) damage of melee crit
5) double attack %
6) damage of double attack
7) chance of success of melee attack
B. Brigand(debuff of melee defense)
1) mitigation
2) avoidance(block, parry)
3) critical mitigation
4) speed of HP regeneration
C. Conjuror(debuff of spell attack)
1) spell dps
2) spell accuracy
3) spell crit %
4) damage of spell crit
5) chance of success of spell attack
D. Necromancer(debuff of spell defense)
1) magical resists
2) speed of power regeneration
Clealy, Brigand and Necromancer(debuff of defense) will have less debuffs than Swashbuckler and Conjuror(debuff of attack).
How do devs think about this?

I hear a lot about summoners being broken, etc. I don't play your class, but I have watched 2 guildies (conjy and necro) throw down crazy parses on aoe mobs and single target mobs. I watch the swashy run neck and neck on our brig parses on single targets. The swashies do crazy aoe dps. So, the other classes dps better. My brig debuffs better.
Now you're flirting with the idea of taking away my brig debuffs to "balance" out the other three.
When you form these panels, I surely hope you find some people who actually know how to play a summoner. Watch them in raids and groups. Then come back and tell me they need some of my debuffs too.