Beginning of the end for Brigands? to a much lesser degree Swash...

Dreyco wrote:

Regardless, I have a feeling some will simply go back to the way some setups were back at tier 5....which was simply to load up with scouts. Having to rely on two different classes to debuff two different types of mitigation/resists reliably without either debuffer dying is rather compromising.
All this change will do is nerf the ability of raid forces. People will still want to run with multiple enchanters if they dont want their groups to run dry on power, power being a large issue even with enchanters on the harder fights this tier.

Why not leave well enough alone? pffft.

Morghus wrote:

Well, at that point in time, it will be the moment where you point fingers at the guilds and not the devs, because by all rights, every class will be worthwhile in having in some way, shape, or form.
And according to the panels (All subject to change), some of those buffs will become raid wide, making it unnecessary to bring more than one, unless that's what you want to bring.

Dreyco wrote:

The intent is all well and good, but sometimes the method butchers the intent. Instead of needing 1 brigand in the raid, the raid will now require 1 brigand, 1 necromancer, and 1 conjuror to properly debuff enemies of their resistances.
That is incredibly large in current tier raids, as even having over 500 in relevant casting skills is not enough to not get resisted alot by level 88 raid enemies before debuffs are applied. If sorcerors are going to require two other classes in the raid just to debuff their resistance type then it might be better not to have them.
Especially on fights where the enemies actually strip themselves of debuffs frequently. And fights where enemies raidwide power drain or instantly drain someone from full to 0% require enchanters in groups especially Illusionists with their epic proc.

Morghus wrote:

Correction. One brigand/Swash, and one necro/conjy. With about three less Coercer/illusionists, and three less dirges/bards. So only two. But you can add more if you want to!

Aeralik wrote:

Quite frankly it's because at this point not one Swash that I've seen trusts anything you have to say. And that's your own fault, and it's your job to prove otherwise.

all mana songs/procs will clearly become raid wide and no i don't like the current idea about spliting the debuffs. i feel they should stick to necro/brig debuff defense and conj/swash debuff offense. if anything the necro will take the second brigs spot. ofcourse swash and conj offensive debuffs should be pretty massive. of course time will tell.

Aeralik wrote:

Can you not grasp why this is causing me and other brigands upset? id really suggest reading my first and opening post of this thread, we have been the bottom of the totem pole in a lot of areas when it comes to the 4 dps scouts, and for all time we have been told "you are a debuffer", " you have Dispatch", " you are wanted on raids even with the low dps, cos you have debuffs", all of this has been true, and accepted i could live with all of them things, bitter as they may be to accept, but now you plan to remove the reasons why we have been sub performers to other dps scouts.
Im all for you sharing our class defining abilitys with Swash/Conj/Necro, what i have no faith in you to do, and your track record is living proof of this, is to give us anything back worthwhile in return for what you take from our class.
if you do take them, fine, but please when you do,:
Rework our deaggro to be inline with Preds/Swash,
Rework our self buffs to be inline with Preds/Swash,
Rework our short term buffs to be inline with Preds/Swash, ie give us one,
Rework our god awful AA lines to be inline with Preds/Swash.
Rework our Aoe dps to be inline with Preds/Swash,
I will go on record here and say id be happy with you actually merging Swash and Brigand, so long as you take whats good about both class's and combine it.

Dreyco wrote:

Sounds like two mutually exclusive statements to me. "Theyre not taking anything away from Brigands" would mean just that, nothing is being taken away. Taking vs magic debuffs and giving them to summoners is *exactly* taking something away from Brigands.

EasternKing wrote:

That would put rogues closer to assassin dps.... so you know Aerilak is never go to do that.

Thundy wrote:

QFE
The Swash mythical, the lack of understanding of what the hate transfer meant to the swashies, etc. I mean taking away swashy hate transfer would have been like taking away debuffs from the brigand... Hmmmm.
Like i said to aeralik during the fighter revamp, you can take the hate transfer, but you need to give us something in return. Same goes for the brigand and thier debuffs.

You know something is seriously wrong when a swashy sticks up for the Brigs..

Aerilak, pay attention, people are seriously p***ed off.

The reason people read between the lines, is because you simply cant, or dont, convey your intentions. You dont tell people whats going on any more than hinting at a class destruction. What would you have us do? Some people have been playing Brigs for FIVE long years. Theyre about to see the class ripped apart and the scraps thrown to other classes because you simply dont want to listen to what they are saying / asking for / begging for. They want their pets fix but youve just thrown them the left arm that you ripped off the Brigs. The only time we seem to see anything from you is when you make a flash appearance here and tell people that theyre wrong, then disapear again.

How about removing ALL assassin util and givng that to summoners. Let them debuff vs crit. Assassins arent a util class,why should they have util? Brigs are a util class...

Give debuff for melee crits to brigs.. We are gonna be the melee defuffers now.

Dreyco wrote:

CORRECTION: WTF would you add **** DPS in those slots? The extra slots will go to t1 DPS NOT to rogues OR summoners.
Devs put some work in and fix summoners with positive changes to their class. This BS debuff debacle simply causes problems and solves none.

Even if making these changes do free up raid slots, it's very unlikely they'll be given to summoners. A lot more would have to be given to those classes to make them desirable enough to go on the have to have one roster.
If summoners need more desirablilty, okay. It shouldn't be at the cost to another class. Moving abilities from bards and chanters, who are making up a third or more of the raid as it is, makes more sense than changing brigands. Utility needs to be moved from the MOST common classes not one of the least common.

aye Deekin. this reminds me so much of our battle against the witch king regarding the whole swashy myth / hate xfer debacle. I was in outrage and shock at the inflexibility the devs were bringing to the table during that epic struggle (in which we lost btw). The only reason he didn't implement those rediculous changes to the swashy was because the entire fighter change was scrapped. We would have been bent. I really fear for the brigs now because there was no convincing that guy at all when the eye was on us and he was actively on the rampage.


btw, IBTL!

I would suggest that the personal attacks stop please.....
There is no need for that on these forums in order to get a point across.

Shareana wrote:

uhh, what personal attacks? dont know maybe i missed something but i just reread the last 2 pages and i didnt see any personal attacks. I saw some players voicing thier concerns about aeraliks ability to handle these changes effectively, but thats not personal, thats just business, and statements about how things have been handled before. Im sorry but its not like we are coming out of left field with our concerns on this, He already showed us in the past how he likes to handle things like this, and us as players are just saying we dont want to see that happen, AGAIN.
I also find it somewhat, interesting, that aeralik can be blunt and disrespectful to us in posts, but when we want to voice some legit concerns, we get a mod telling us to stop some phantom personal attacks.
I would love for Aeralik to prove every single one of us wrong. But until he does so, our concerns will stand.
Does that get the point across?

Those open spots will be high DPS casters.

Winge. Winge. Winge. Quit your winging brigands. It's not the end of your class. Summoners are getting some desirability at your OP expense.
Fact is... there are no facts. Yet. Save the lynch brigade for when you have actual data to look at.