Anyone else outraged @ the removal of bow CAs?

By the way, if u dont wanna use a bow cause u feel it dosent fit u then dont, but dont screw everyone else over... not like they are forceing u to use that bow.... but atm they are forceing all of us to loose our bow!

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Here u go Keelis, now this site is saying that swashbuckling isnt only confined to pirate ships, but is showing u that a swashbuckler was INDEED a pirate!
http://www.users.qwest.net/~aknot/swashbuckler.htm
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*cough* the point worth noticing is that we are of the *rogue* class.
In almost any RPG I've played rogues used shortbows, not some kind of strange throwing weapons.
We're not some kind of ninja or martial arts class, just plain old rogues, I don't really see why everyone keeps getting the idea they shouldn't be able to use bows. (Yes Im just shamelessly promoting my opinion of wanting Frigid Blast back before it's even gone.)
I mean even in good ol' Diablo there are three classes, one of them being the rogue... Guess what, the rogue is the class that masters the bow. The three classes arent fighter, sorceror, scout/archer/ranger. Nope it's rogue and she uses a bow exclusively. That of course doesn't mean that every rogue has to use a bow - throwing knives/stars make sense to me too if it's a rogue going towards martial arts. But along with the dagger, the bow is the typical rogue weapon seen in most RPGs...

Heres another one for u keelis....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swashbuckler
by the way go to google and search on images and type in swashbuckler.... everything u will see is pirates
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Go to google type in swashbuckler... the first site the shows up is http://www.aschulze.net/pirates/
ALL ABOUT PIRATES!!!!!!!!!
Here is their definition of swashbuckler-What is a Swashbuckler?
According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the term "swash" has had several meanings. One was "to dash or cast violently" (1577). A "swashbuckler" was one who makes a noise by striking his own or his opponent's shield with his sword... a swaggering bravo or ruffian. Today the word often refers to pirates or movies about them.
It seems when u looked up the definition u decided to leave the pirate part out..........
And who are you to say a pirate never used a bow??? have u spoken to a pirate yourself and done documentations on them?? pirates used things like harpoons to allow themselves to get onto an opponents ship.... i can guarantee u they used bows or a Crossbow mainly! just b/c they are a flambouyant swordsman doesnt mean they didnt like a range attack involving a bow or crossbow!
You need to do more research b4 you open your mouth.
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In AD&D there is a swashbuckler class...at least in the balders gate series and a few others I've played. Swashbucklers are usually a jack of all trades. Part fighter, part rogue, and part bard. In most these games they also could use throwing knives, but I believe bows were also an option.
In most the AD&D rule set (or close to it) games I've played rogues weren't limited to bows either, but it was an option. However, none of those games had swashbucklers as rogues, they were a bit of a hybrid.

For one thing, Pirates are not just the peg legged, hook handed, eye patched, parrot shouldered variety. There have been pirates pretty much as long as there has been shipping, so pirates have used weapons from bows to assault rifles over history.
Swashbucklers have nothing to do with pirates really. In fact, by definition they are closer to brigands, but the term has more to do with personality than profession, it is the flamboyant, cocky nature more than anything else.
However, if you go by Swashbuckler movies, you will almost never see a bow, first and foremost is Swordsmanship for Swashbucklers, and historically speaking that is the case, too.

They are flashy swordsman, with a very flamboyant and showy personality. Bows really are not something that would be associated with them. You can't taunt someone if they are 30 yards away, at least not without yelling really, really loud, but that goes against the bravado angle of Swashbucklers.

As for crossbows being a Swashbuckler weapon, no that is very unlikely. Crossbows were weapons for soldiers, because while not remotely effective compared to bows, they were easy to learn how to use, but they were heavy and unwieldy, so it doesn't really fall into the kind of Swashbuckler graceful style you would think of.

Well, I'm glad this hasn't turned into an anti-roleplayer flamewar like another thread I've seen ('Roleplayer whining screwed it for the rest of us!')...I'm definitely a roleplayer, and I wanna keep my bow!

Not just because I make them (though that contributes to my feelings, sure), not just 'cause the ones I make and imbue do better damage than any sheathful of throwing weapons I've seen...I could honestly give a flying what the 'classical' definition of swashbuckler is, I see myself, myself as my swashie character, as a thief with style, a wandering rogue who can sneak up on a giant, unleash a few arrows to soften it up, then close and lay it low with my other weapons, my wits and panache keeping me from falling to it...hopefully. Kinda an Errol Flynn with fur, stealing from the rich and keeping for myself--never said I was a goody-two-shoes Bows seem like a perfect weapon for a rogue anyway, it's one item that a thief could carry and explain away if guards caught up to him--'Och, this thing? Oy'm jes' huntin' here, sorr, 'ave you bin seein' any deer here'boots? Th' missus, she be wantin' tae make stew to-noyt...' Try telling a city guard you're 'just hunting' with a set of poisoned daggers strapped across your chest.

And really, I don't see what's so wrong with the system we have now? If I wanted to pick up a set of axes or knives I could use them (I don't, but I could, certainly), but what's the big deal with having a choice of using a bow or a throwing weapon in our ranged slot? Crusaders owe a lot to the story of King Arthur, I'm sure, and King Arthur weilded a rather famous sword--famous enough that it's not his name in the titles of some movies about him, but the sword's name--does that mean all crusaders should carry swords and nothing else? Choices are good things, they help a person develop their own style based on the choices made, I'd much rather *not* see the choice taken away here.

Totally agreeing with Matheau really. Going with the term swashbuckler I'd say the only ranged attacks involved might be verbal ones and the range would be just out of blade range. The word swashbuckler itself paints a certain picture in my mind and I guess in most others. The picture of a bladedancer wielding stylish weapons such as two falchions and winning his battles with charm and finesse. Weaving his blades faster than the eye can follow and parrying any attack including projectiles with either his blade or avoiding them with his lightning reflexes. Ranged weapons aren't really a part of that picture, so I think claiming they have to use a certain ranged weapon for roleplaying reasons is pointless.
Fact is in this game a swashbuckler is a rogue subclass and rogues can use bows and Frigid Blast is wonderful skill I personally (along with others) hate seeing get mutilated. Seen that there is no rping reason -as stated above- to debate over which weapon we should use I go by the pure game mechanics, and taking those into account having to use a throwing weapon is lethal - for the swashbuckler. Thus, bow please.

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Matheau wrote:
For one thing, Pirates are not just the peg legged, hook handed, eye patched, parrot shouldered variety. There have been pirates pretty much as long as there has been shipping, so pirates have used weapons from bows to assault rifles over history.
Swashbucklers have nothing to do with pirates really. In fact, by definition they are closer to brigands, but the term has more to do with personality than profession, it is the flamboyant, cocky nature more than anything else.
However, if you go by Swashbuckler movies, you will almost never see a bow, first and foremost is Swordsmanship for Swashbucklers, and historically speaking that is the case, too.

They are flashy swordsman, with a very flamboyant and showy personality. Bows really are not something that would be associated with them. You can't taunt someone if they are 30 yards away, at least not without yelling really, really loud, but that goes against the bravado angle of Swashbucklers.

As for crossbows being a Swashbuckler weapon, no that is very unlikely. Crossbows were weapons for soldiers, because while not remotely effective compared to bows, they were easy to learn how to use, but they were heavy and unwieldy, so it doesn't really fall into the kind of Swashbuckler graceful style you would think of.
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Dude... First of all ive provided enuff documentation that a swashbuckler is a pirate, i dont see how you can say that a swashbuckler has nothing to do with a pirate... ur an idiot, if u look at one of the definitions i have from the oxford english dictionary it even says there that swashbucklers ARE pirates.... Second of all you dont really go by definition rather you go by how everyong interprits it IRL!!!!!!
Here is their definition of swashbuckler-What is a Swashbuckler?
According to The Oxford English Dictionary, the term "swash" has had several meanings. One was "to dash or cast violently" (1577). A "swashbuckler" was one who makes a noise by striking his own or his opponent's shield with his sword... a swaggering bravo or ruffian. Today the word often refers to pirates or movies about them. <-------- Right there out of the dictionary saying that a swashbuckler is a Friggin pirate!!!!!
Third of all you are trying to tell me that if 2 opposing pirate ships pulled up next to each other they would stand there dumbfounded looking at eachother and yelling at eachother rather than shooting them with a bow or crossbow?!?!?! NO.... they will use anytihng they can to defeath their opponent, and since this is the midevil days they cant use a pistol or a cannon etc....

Also a pirate is basically a rebel who fights for his own causes, if you really wanna get technical about this Robin Hood was a land pirate, he stole from the rich and gave to the poor b/c that was what he felt was right, now yes he could be a ranger too.... But in all reality his cause and beliefes makes him a pirate.

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Seriously Matheau, Go to google.com and search images, now type in swashbuckler.... ALL you will see is images of pirates.... then go to web search and just put in swashbuckler, the first site that shows up is swashbucklers cove- http://www.aschulze.net/pirates/
Its all about pirates man.... i really dont see how u can say a swashbuckler isnt a pirate after looking at all of that.... if u want me to i can show you more and more documentation on it if u want.... but i think this is self explanitory.....

Tende Humada

This is a picture of MIDIEVIL pirates who have not realized gunpowder yet, takeing over another ship.... and look at that BOW they are useing!!!!!!!!! Also they are useing many other objects.... Anything they can use to defeat their enemy is what they will use.... Now with that pic u cannot tell me pirates didnt use bows in the midievil days of no gunpowder!!!

Tende Humada

Dictionary definiton of the term Swashbuckler:
1. A flamboyant swordsman or adventurer.
2. A sword-wielding ruffian or bully.
3. A dramatic or literary work dealing with a swashbuckler.

Or lets check what other games think of the swashbuckler: Baldur's Gate 2

Swashbuckler

This rogue is part acrobat, part swordsman, and part wit: the epitome of charm and grace.

Advantages:
* Bonus +1 to AC.
* Another +1 to AC for every 5 levels.
* +1 to hit and damage every 5 levels.
* May specialize in any weapon that a thief can use
* May place three stars in two-weapon fighting style proficiency

Disadvantages:
* No backstab multiplier.

Plenty of pirates in there. I really fail to see you point anyway Tende. You keep advertising the pirate aspect of the swashbuckler, in what way does that relate to the fact whether a swashbuckler uses a bow or a throwing knife? The only thing a pirate ever threw would maybe be his own blade if he's out of options or maybe a bottle of ale. Doesn't really help to decide what to do in this case does it?

Edit:
Cool logic in there by the way, kind of like:
When you look up humans it says mammal all the way, now look here I got a picture of mammals! See, these are elephants getting themselves all muddy and dirty to keep their skins from drying out, that's why I never shower!
When you look up swashbuckler in google you may get pirate piccies buddy, yet not piccies of a medieval pirates who have yet to use gunpowder and are using bows.
When you look up the term swashbuckler you won't find a single pic of a guy with a bow. That you find pics of pirates in Captain Jack Sparrows manner is obvious - that Captain Jack Sparrow isn't a medieval fellow shooting about with arrows is obvious too though.
Message Edited by Triccer on 08-09-2005 04:20 PM

LOL, sorry guys I don't see the massive harm in it. I don't mind goign to throwing. Other than the ammo is the same cost, less damage, throws faster, which means i'll use WAY more daggers then arrows, and it will cost me more to do so. So I guess i'm pretty hot about it too. muhahahahaha. But really, how many pirates have you seen with a bow? any? i haven't so the daggers will be ok I guess. Us swashbucklers will make it through this. But however. the extra HP????? WHY, GIVE ME SOME MORE DPS!!!
Also, good point on the last post.
Message Edited by coochic on 08-09-2005 04:34 PM

Triccer, the reason i keep saying a swash is a pirate is b/c ive had a few ppl disagree with me, even after showing proof about it, and i cant see how u can either, if u search swashbuckler and get nothing but stuff about pirates what does that say???? just b/c it says we are a flambouyant swordsman, ruffian, bully, etc, doesnt mean that we arent a pirate.... and were u a pirate at any time in your life?? the pic i have above perfectly shows a pirate useing a bow, so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]..... we are pirates no doubt about it, now i was also proveing that pirates used bows when there were no discoveries of gunpowder...I can guarantee u a swash from the midievil ages would use a bow when needed, but may prefer his swords, which is why we arent as powerful with a bow as like a ranger would be. And like many other ppl have said, along with yourself i believe, since we branch from a rogue class, like every other game ive played rogues can use a bow, so why cant we? i just dont see how u guys can say in your own opinion that a swashbuckler isnt a pirate when there is documented proof of it....
also BTW i found that pic i have above by seaching swashbucklers sooo........ dont try to decide yourself where i got my information!
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Swashbucker also refered to the cinematic genre popularised by the like of Errol Flynn. These were characterised by flamboyance and fencing-style fights, usually using sabres or foils (whether or not these weapons were even invented historically in the period the movie was set).

This genre was NOT limited to only pirate movies, but often included the likes of Robin Hood films too. Robin Hood is not a pirate. Inego Montoya (the Princess Bride) is not a pirate.

The meaning of the term Swashbucker orginally mean a bully or ruffian whose sword scraped against his buckler giving the characteristic "swash" sound, however, language evolves. The COMMON connotation of swashbuckler post 50s cinemas is that of the Errol Flynn type hero who was often, but DEFINATLEY not always, a privateer, or even a pirate.

Assuming the class is INSPIRED by this breed of swashbuckler, not the duel picking ruffian of history (most plausible, given the Berserker Class) then "this is a pirate/not a pirate" arguments are moot. They CAN be a pirate, but more often are not.


Right, now that's out of the way, to answer the original question, no, I am not outraged. I am certainly annoyed, given the relative quality of bandoliers vs bows, and the loss of use my current bow will see, esp since it was a quest reward choice. I dont use bows for anything other than CA's and this renders my bow moot.

However, we are a rogue class. I see it fitting us better RP wise and definately helps distinguish us from rangers. Anything that helps distinguish the classes is good imho.

As long as bandoliers are re-itemised to be viable alternatives to bows, I'm all for it. Coz currently, the bandoliers I've seen bite.

And I also agree, if this was done for mostly RP reasons, why do rangers still have poison...?

You are making a big leap. Swashbucklers can refer to pirates, but by definition, even the one you wrote, does not say they ARE, only that many modern day movies depict them as pirates.
You are totally jumping a step in logic.

As far as my take. I believe one of the goals of the revamp is to eliminate kiting. Most ranger bow skills require you to stand still now. Kiting costs shouldn't be an issue because we aren't supposed to be kiting. In normal combat, the only time you will use the ranged weapon is using your bow skills, which will do the same damage wiether you use a bow or throwing dagger and cost the same.

It shouldn't make a bit of difference weither we use a bow or daggers. They are taking plenty of steps to make kiting go bye bye, so it might be good to let it go and not think in terms of auto firing ranged weapons.

Precisely.

if shwashbucklers were meant to have any associations generated towards pirates in this game, they would not be attached to the queynos side, just a little hint to those pirate maniacs

rogues, shwashbucklers especially should and are more focused on fighting within melee range, the ranged weapon of their choice should not be class defining (as of the bow of the rangers) and restricted at all