Anyone else outraged @ the removal of bow CAs?

If so, please speak up. I usually roll with the punches (and as a Swashbuckler there's been a lot of punches), but changing our ranged CAs to use the throwing skill is an absolute kick in the gut. It's too late in the game to be making a change like that, and I'm quite frankly insulted. If they want us to use the throwing skill, fine, but provide us with a choice. Do not make our only ranged CA use the throwing skill, thus forcing us to equip bandoliers and daggers, but perhaps introduce a new (more desirable?) ranged CA that uses the throwing skill. Please reconsider this change.

I've been biting my tongue, trying to be patient through these combat changes as I know things can be tweaked for desired effect. And I have faith in the developers that the final outcome will be appropriate. However, I do hope the above change was just a test, because in its current iterration it is really inconsiderate to the Swashbuckler class.

Message Edited by Bapae on 08-05-2005 12:53 PM

You're not the only one.

UNLESS they introduce some fabled sheaths in the game with stats comparable to valian / yew bows and change the fact that higher delay weapons = more procs, I'm against their decision to force us into using them.

I'm also against their decision to give us more hp to make up for the predator's increase in DPS. As a swashbuckler, I'm expected to be a DPS class in raids - additional hp doesn't help with dps now, does it?

Weak.

So weak.

I'm with the OP and have kept playing my Swash through some changes that I didn't agree with, but could live with. This change, though... is weak. I'm not one to harshly criticize and in the few times that I've posted on the SOE boards, none of them have been critical of SOE's decisions.

This is ridiculous, though. I just bought a pristine imbued cedar long bow that's (more or less) worthless now. I'll give SOE the benefit of the doubt, but I have to speak up and say that on the surface, this idea is really... f'in.... weak.

Amirais - 44 Swashbuckler - Oasis

??

I'm gonna have to research this...my signature below should tell volumes about why this would upset me! If I can no longer make good use of the only imbued weapon THAT I MAKE which I can use, argh!

Changing our ranged CA from bow to throwing this late in the game is just a slap in the face, regardless of what was envisioned for the swashbuckler subclass. I don't RP and I don't play on an RP server, and I think that is the case for the majority of players in general, so the RP argument holds no water for me. If anything, the change should be that you can use either skill, bow or throwing, for the CA.
Some things you *have* to change to balance mechanics - this does nothing for mechanics.

Then there is the lack of comparable equipment, bows to bandoilers. Though, if this change goes through I'd imagine we'd see a few new items here, I hope.

I'm sorry I have to mention this too, slightly off topic but it is a test change . Brig and Swashes get a raise in HP...thank you...so...very...much, really, I'm ecstatic. >.<

-Yamamata / 49 Swash on Guk

Argh! Mewants me bow, matey! Or at least something that does equal damage. Arrrrggghhh!

Quanta Glowingtide
28 Swash/ Innothule
Message Edited by Quanta12squared on 08-05-2005 04:04 PM

I have to agree at this point the option to use either should be left in the game.

At a bare minimum bows should be unequipped and unattuned so they can be traded or sold.

Not fond of this change at all.

This is total BS. Us swashies have to use poisons to keep up with DPS in this crazy world, We need our bows for the head start at the beggining of battles, also its really the only way we can solo an orange mob by kiteing it around. Every class should be able to solo if needed and this is gunna make it impossible, i dont care if u screw our sneak over. i dont want to sit there killing greens and blues all day waiting for a grp. Ive spent lots and lots of gold buying a master for my bow attack along with my bow itself.... And if u do take my bow away, how are u gunna make up for the master skill ive bought? and are u gunna replace my bow for me with something else? I dont see why games always take steps backwards instead of moveing forward. Rogues are all about Agi, therefore a bow fits in perfectly in the equation. were paying you money every month to screw our classes over? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], if u put something in the game in the first place cause it was a good idea stick with it, dont take it out, unless it doesnt make any sense.... which why would u have put it in the game in the first place if it didnt? I have 2 accounts and pay $30 a month, I will quit this game if u take away my bow, and u will be looseing a valuable customer. I used to play EQ1 till this game came out so ive been with u guys for a while, but if u do this some other games gunna get my money. Ive invested too much time and money for u to tottaly screw my class over, and i can guarantee you there are hundreds more out there like me... just my 2 coppers worth.

Tende Humada
Swashbuckler of Antonia Bayle

The change to throwing daggers won't change our kiting ability at all, but it does effect the proc rate, which isn't good. I also like the bow, it's just cool looking.

I hope this change never makes it past test. This is just a stupid silly change that i cant really understand (A scout without a bow CA eh? :smileyindifferent: )

Also this will kills us in raids. Give us decent damage Sony...dont take it away =\


Message Edited by Gusta on 08-06-2005 04:29 AM

If I wanted to kite and use a bow, I would have been a Ranger, in fact that is pretty much the entire reason I chose Swashbuckler over Ranger. The only reason I even have a bow is because it has better stats on it and a longer range then anything I reasonably would pay for at the moment.
I'm not going to speak for raids because I haven't really done many, at least anything that difficult yet, so maybe in harder raids it is just too dangerous to stand in melee range, I won't comment on all of those because I haven't done all that many, it isn't that unusual in an MMO that the functions of a job or class would be severely altered in those more extreme type of encounters.
I am a bit confused about what this "throw" skill is though. I have yet to even see a Throwing skill, and all ranged weapons from my experience have gone off the ranged skill. That means either I'm bugged severely, you get the throwing skill at a higher level (seems unlikely since from my experience you get all the skills your class and subclass use during class selection), or they are adding a throwing skill to the game (would be kind of odd, I can't think of any balance issues where a seperate skill is needed unless they are planning on giving some classes extra incentive to use bows over throwing weapons and vice versa).
Personally I think Swashbucklers should have extra incentive to use throwing weapons over bows, throwing daggers are just more Swashbuckling than bows, I can't think of one Swashbuckler movie I've ever seen where they used a bow, pistols occassionally, but no bows.
As for altering the poison procs so it happens more often on lower delay weapons, this is such a delicate game balance issue that I really don't think it is one you are going to see a noticable effect anytime soon. If they make it happen even slightly too often, then anyone with poisons would get the highest up front damage ones and the lowest delay weapons and be able to liquefy foes. In the 7.0 second delay of a bow, a Swashbuckler up close is getting about 10 hits with fast duel wield weapons (14 if they have 1.0 second delay ones in both hands). The odds for a 1 second delay weapon to get a poison proc is 1 in 12. The odds of the bow getting a poison proc is almost 60% for 7.0 second delay. For the 1 second delay weapons being dual wielded it is actually close to 70% (in case you are wondering how I figured it out, I assumed there was an 11/12 chance of each hit not procing so I figured the chance of no proc by multipling that figure 14 times (11/12)^14, which gives a roughly 30% chance on no proc, and from there I just subtracted that by a thousand). So actually even with the current formula, duel wielding fast weapons means more poison procs than the bow to begin with.
Forgot to add, when you factor in missing, more hits will always be favored in poison procs, if you consider all other things being equal. Every miss with a bow is equal to losing 14 hits with the dual wielded weapons, and missing 14 times in a row would be a major fluke statistically or indicate that the accuracy is too subpar to expect bow hits anyways.
Message Edited by Matheau on 08-06-2005 05:29 AM

The procs per second arent the point really. Of course you will get the same amount of procs in a given amount of time whether in ranged autoattack mode with a bow, melee mode or ranged autoattack with a sheath. That's the way it is designed.
What really deos matter is the procs per hit. When in the middle of a fight, back away and launch a Frigid Blast and turn ranged on while Frigid Blast is casting, then once it both fires off, hit autoattack again to switch back to melee mode and you did about 700 to 1.5k damage depending on procs in 3 seconds, cause every single of the 3 hits you do that second is considered to have a 7 second delay. The chances for 1.5k aren't all that bad Now try to do that trick with a 2.8 second delay sheath. You would probably lose dps from those 3 seconds of backing away with that horrible proc rate.
Apart from that, when kiting you are wasting a lot more daggers than you would waste arrows, not that it matters too much but it is annoying. Oh and you lose 10meters of range from a long bow.
The way it is designed at the moment having to use anything different from a longbow is a very, very bad thing.
Then again I wouldn't bet on the proc rules to stay the same after the combat patch. Maybe Frigid Blast won't be affected by the delay of the ranged weapon anymore, who knows...

Well this is midevil days not pirate days, we arent gunna be useing pistols......... BUT anyhow, i really mostly care about the stats on the bow and the Range ability.... dont want to be within aggro range when i go to throw something at them!!! Rogues very dexterious, why not have a bow? ill prob never use the throw skill if they take away my bow.....

Tende Humada

To be honest ... if stats were the same, deep down I wouldn't care whether I use a bow or dagger ... and from a rogue RP standpoint, daggers do make a lot more sense. Course under that logic we should get 1HB crushing like EQ1 (blackjacks, etc )

To me though, just seems to be changing something for the sake of changing. Is there a crafter that makes Sheaths? Maybe SOE is trying to make more business for them??

You never really can tell what SOE is up to... but I have to agree with all the previous posters.

Here's to wasting sixty gold down the drain. :smileysad:

A few things here:

Bows ARE stupid, swashbucklers use CROSSBOWS. (as far as irl) Throwing hammers, daggers, axes whatever is all together stupid. There is no native american or ninja class as far as I know, so I would hate to see these infrequently used items forced on people.

Swashbuckler (lvl 30ish is all i can comment on) NEED bow(xbow) to compensate for power taken away from their damage and given to their utility abilities ie evac, sneak, etc.

Having to buy poisons is ridiculous. When you consider that tanks b*tch about armor repair $$$.
========================================================================
Please tell me what about a swashbuckler makes it a swashbuckler aside from the names. There is no relation to pirating, ships, or the sea.
Suggestion: ship transportation- access to the ocean could mean instant travel to surrounding continets via some $$$ for his crew's payment etc. Consider 30s, half the current 60s for ship travel.

Are people actually trying to justify altering a game mechanic in place for almost a year because of what they think they know about the historical weapon choices of "swashbucklers." Can you define for me what the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] a swashbuckler REALLY is and give me some documentation where it says that their weapon of choice was throwing daggers?

In all honesty, I kind of like the look of a bow, but if they add pouches/satchels/sheaths or whatever in the game with the same stats as bows I'll be content. I don't want them to be too low delay though cause I don't have the money for that much ammo.

Try a dictionary sometime. Swashbucklers are not pirates, although a pirate could also be a swashbuckler.
And if you really want to go that route, there never were an awful lot of pirate archers in any time period anyway.

A swashbuckler is a flamboyant swordsman or adventurer; a sword-wielding ruffian or bully.

Keelis, thats kinda what im trying to get at, a bow doesnt really make sense yes i agree, but i can find u some documentation on a swashbuckler being a pirate, and a pirate would use a crossbow, B/C in these days there arent any pistols, this is a midevil game, but if they arent gunna give us a crossbow dont take out someting that has been in the game for like ayear!

Tende Humada