I have 6 level 80 toons. I play the game, I know the classes. I raid with my dps classes and really do prefer my necro to all my other toons. Its my second endgame necro. After taking all of these other classes to level 80 though I can tell you there is some stuff broken with necros. Number one, there is no practical reason to play a necro as a group player. We don't do anything better than any other class except solo pve. Number two, in t8 we are utterly **** at pvp. Group or solo, it's no point in dragging along a class that has a broken pet that may or may not be following close enough to it's master. Not to mention the fact that even if the pet is there it will do little to no good in the 1-2 seconds that a scout is dealing his/her 5-10,000 dps on the necro. Number three, the dynamics of the typical group nowadays is such that a necro is entirely unneeded. Take any tso run and look at how a necro can help. The TSOs are short runs, no need to saccrifice DPS by bringing us along to res people. Seriously, since the Dessert of Flames expansion we have been losing ground as every advantage we had that would get us in groups was based on the world as it stood when 50 was the level cap. Since then, we have gained nothing while bards and chanters have gained all of our abilities and had major reworks to their DPS. In fact, chanters are now the only mage class worth playing in group~ and thats coming from a guy with an 80 warlock too. Our pets need to be fixed. We need them to be able to dps better without gear, the gear in tso does not help them enough to overcome their massive AI handicap. Gearing myself in crit gear gets my overall dps better than focusing on pet boost gear. And even then, the dps in small group is nothing compared to the overpopulated rogue and predator classes.
Obviously, you have not been reading all the other posts about necromancers. Most everyone agrees with you. Unfortunately, SOE hasn't been reading these posts either. Their attitude has been "Oh, lets throw out some gear and tweak it a bit and that will stop the summoner classes from complaining. A fundamental fix to the class is just too much work." BTW, that is why I am leveling a troubador, too.
Toolooze wrote: I made a similar comment on the warlock forums. I am continually being matched or out dpsed by coercers on my warlock. Wtf would you want a warlock who can only do dps vs a coercer who can dps and brings so much utility. Forget even mentioning a necro lolz... Sad days indeed... That being said...Its been fun leveling my coercer/sk/dirge....lolz
Some people run into this problem alot but it seems kinda exagerated. Especially in group content. If you have no mage buffs no mage class is going to do all that well in the DPS department. Just like in a group with no melee buffs the zomg uber DPS Assassin isn't all that uber anymore either. Everything is so specialized that building the group properly is just as important as playing well. You gotta think about what classes work well together. Guard/Zerker works well with Scouts. SK/Paly works well with Mage. Brawler is kindof well lets face it they don't work well yet either way until the content is trivial... I don't have any issue with DPS in a group with a troubador. And I've never "NOT" been able to kill something in the game because I'm a Necro. Not only that but I can put up serious numbers if the group isn't scout focused. Same with scouts if the group isn't mage focused they do extremely well. Stick with SK, Troubador, Cleric... classes that augement your DPS. Do the same thing that scouts do. All classes perform well with proper support in group content. Even us sad and pathetic Necro. The issue with chanter is they don't need support to perform well because they ARE support. It's kinda stupid they allow chanter to be DPS and the best support in the game but they did... Same with Bards for the most part. And really the best possible group in the game is SK, Cleric, Illy, Coercer, Troub, Dirge. That's enough to completely destroy all herioc content and even some low end raid content... And not only that but faster than any other possible group make-up. There really isn't anything preventing DPS mage from performing well in group content other than a fundamental lack of understanding. And when you boil it down the same things translate into Raid content. There are some disparities in raid content because of the changes to mitigation at that level but it still boils down to how you build the raid and what support each DPS class gets. And really the disparity at top teir progression boils down to trivial content. When yer raid kills orange con epicX4's in 10 seconds the content is trivial. And in that set of circumstances is where the main disparity shows up. It's not because those Sorcs and Summoners can't DPS it's because the content is so trivial their DPS isn't even being applied. Take those 15k Assassin and put them to work on a joust fight or a mob with knockback or stun or any kind of script whatsoever that takes them away from beating directly on the mob at max burn... and look at their DPS. It's not so uber at that point now is it? In PvP that's another story but PvP in a game like this is borked from the get go. It's just the wrong kind of Archetype focused model for a PvP scenario. I can clearly see where Necro are fubar in teir 8 PvP for so many different reasons it hurts to think about. But that's the price you pay for applying PvP to a game design that really shouldn't support it anyway. Some classes are just going to be competitively worthless.
Obviously, Xil you have not played a troubador lately. DPS stinks but support is great. Too many times I am seeing, "Sorry we don't want a necro. We would rather put a scout or wiz in that slot." Its not about being able to kill for a lot of these pick up groups. Just about any group can do that with the holy trinity (tank, healer, chanter). Its about being able to kill so fast they can fit in 3 or 4 instances in an evening. Necro's don't have to be the dps kings of casters. I am fine with Wizards in that role. But give us some useful utility. I can't remember the last time someone asked me for hearts. I have been told by folks, "Don't rez me cause you have rez sick penalty. Let the Templar do that." If I use a transfer life to keep the MT from dying 'cause the cleric is still recycling no one even thinks, "Ah, smart necro!" Our debuffs are not missed. In groups we barely have time to fire them off. There are 4 raid level necro's in my guild. On any given raid 2 or 3 of us will be asked to sit out. I gave up. Raiding doesn't do much for me anyway in terms of enjoying EQ. The gear is nice but I don't want to work so hard for a 1:300 chance a piece of gear will drop that I can use.
Mewse wrote: I've seen troubador parse 8k on raids. What exactly is wrong with that? The real benefit you get from them though is like Xil was saying you support a caster group with caster buffs and the necro can DPS just as well if not better than that Wizard or Warlock. Less agro and the same damage is nice to have for any group. You are absolutley right about the Utility though. Summoner really doesn't have anything useful for obvious utility. They are more like the ultimate user of other classes utility. No mage gets more from mage buffs than summoner. No other Mage can get 100% more damage just from being in the mage group on a raid or having the right mage buffs in a group. I have seen Xil's groups do over 40 thousand damage per second. And he is the only real DPS class in them. He does it with Shadowknight tank, troubador, illusionist or coercer, templar, and fury. Or even Defiler and Inquisitor. 40 thousand DPS. That is a Protector's Realm raid in 1 group. I once saw his group parse over 50k in Palace of Ferzhul. And it was on Ferzhul and his summoned adds not on the two large linked groups at the bottom. 1 group doing 50 thousand damage per second on an orange named monster with adds. And no there wasn't a Sorcerer in the group either. It was just like his normal group with enchanter, and troubador, shadow knight, and 2 healers. If you think Necro DPS is worthless you are sadly mistaken. Anyone who turns down a good Necro on Conjuror is stupid.
1 Necro with good gear and a group specifically built to give him max dps, with AE encounters doing high dps. That's called an example, and is not a proof to an argument. The majority of Necro's can't do this - they can't get the gear cause raids don't want them. They don't group with a Troub and Illy often cause most groups are built around melee dps. And yeah Necro's could *try* to always run their own groups but Troubs and Illy's are rare enough as it is. Plus it's more fun to be able to throw together a group of friends or guildies and run whatever. Yes I feel badass with a Troub and Illy, but in a scout group I feel like a ****. We shouldn't be so dependant on other classes. 2 Healers? - awesome I can Lifeburn all day for a nice dps boost. 1 Healer in a tough zone? well LB won't help me a lot. Don't forget the average Necro.
Dedmage wrote: These numbers mean nothing in the grand scheme. My raid group can pull over 120k dps against current orange content.........numbers is just numbers and can mean nothing when compared to others. And i know i as a conj can be replaced by another class and the group/raid would be better over all..............and the same would apply to a necro. And they are really not stupid to turn diown even the best of any summoner if given a choice of a equall sorc/chant/rouge/bard..... actually they are smart.
Bigron@Unrest wrote: Maybe to replace you. And confirmed raids are only pushing 120k? How is that even possible.. are you 3 grouping TSO raids? That's a patheitc number.
TumpieBrell wrote: Yeah and without melee buffs the assassin feels like a **** too. What is your point? Unfortunatley this game isn't designed so you can make a group of whatever and complete hard content. You have to make the group the right way or you just pay repair bills. No one is forgetting the average Necro. The only reason most Necro can't get god gear and aren't wanted on raids is because they don't know how to do damage. There is no other reason. In teir 1 - 4 raiding Necro can very easily be the highest DPS in the raid. The only way necro struggle on the parse is at the very highest teir when all the other damage classes have avatar drops and the Necro has no equipment that can compare. And even then Necro are doing 12 to 15 THOUSAND damage per second. You know before TSO shadowknights were generally looked at as a terrible tank. Why? Because so many people played them and couldn't tank at all. But the best tanks I ever played with were shadowknights before TSO made them overpowered. Most Necro just need to learn how to do damage. Instead of complaining about how they are weak and can't compete they need to try to learn how to play the class. Once people see you doing really high DPS instead of sitting there letting your pet DPS while you go afk or finish watching that movie, you won't have problems getting groups and when a raid needs mage DPS they will send you tells to come. Stop being lazy. Bigron, Xil is right you are not a Necro. Go complain to the conjuror's about how even in the best raid guild in the game with the best gear you still can't play conjuror worth a damn. No one here cares about conjuror, or what you think about necro. Or even what you think period. Go troll some other forum.
Dedmage wrote: Groups tend to favor melee dps, and are more likely to have buffs for the Assn. Plus they're more likely to be chosen over a necro regardless of the group buffs - for various reasons. Necro's get turned away from groups/raids based purely on the class they play, regardless of how good they may be. And the reason groups/raids don't want the class is because it needs fixing. "Learn to dps" is not the answer. All dps classes have to do that. Given equally skilled players at their class (and pretend Necro's who can't dps aren't afk watching a movie), Necro's still fall short because nobody wants them. They don't offer more utility than other classes who can do the same dps, and are less reliant on good group make up. And because no one wants them, they tend to raid less, and will have a harder time getting the gear needed to improve dps. All your points stem from dps, which is not the whole problem. And lets just say that you're correct and Necro's only problem is we need to learn to dps. Then either there's a disproportionate number of Necro's who can't play well, or there's something wrong with the class. Odds are there's something wrong with the class.
Dedmage wrote: yay! another xil or another xil wannabe! Woot! wow, I wish I could do 15k dps zw, dude you need to tell me how to play!! Or maybe stop anon posting and being an overall troll in the necro forums. I can spout random numbers that are grossly over exaggerated too. But then that won't fix any problems and in fact creates even more. THANKS!!
I dont play in an uber raid guild. So, I don't have the best gear or all Master spells. I rarely get grouped with spell dps buffing classes. I have never been in an optimally stacked group for a summoner. I run on an old Dell PC and not the best gaming system out there. My best dps is 4.3K. I know another necro in my guild who has all masters and better gear (better PC too). He does 5 - 6 K. My issue is not so much about dps. Its about lack of desireability. Necro's are busted. We have fundamental flaws. SOE is not fixing them. Frankly, people from uber raid guilds with high end hardware who push out their exceptional dps numbers as the norm are not helping us get fixed. All they are doing is bragging about how they are more uber than us normal folks. You can parse ovrer 12K? wonderful for you. But it is not the norm for most necro's out there. And that has nothing to do with our casting order or playstyle. It has to do with our not having access to the best gear and optimal groups or top flight hardware for our PC's. We are the average necro's - even slightly above average necro's. We will never be the top 5% of the necro community and we don't want to be. We want the bugs ironed out of our class. We want other players to actually want to group with us because they see we have value - even outside of a raid.
Dedmage wrote: Hi ok im not gonna insult you cause well you seem new here but.....is Xil whole raid pushing 40k? No its group ....sooooo i guess they need to replace his whole group.....as i said numbers when compared means nothing
Dedmage wrote: Umm sorry no....since im not trolling.The same issues effect both conj and necro to bad some are to dense to see that....... you seem new and fresh ill hold out hope for you yet tho. /Tear awwww it hurts my feelings that you think i dont know how to play my class...breaking my heart kid.
Dedmage wrote: yea because your scrub raid force kills the same content as confirmed? please please go play house with your daddy Xil or something.. and stop posting about crap you have no clue about Dedmage wrote: 1. did you play a shadow knight pre-TSO? that's right you have no clue what your talking about .. your dady xill has thought you well 2. Did you raid a necro in early RoK? and did you understand the class then? since your dady Xill had not mentored you back then! 3. I'm usually ALWAYS top parse in the pick up groups BUT they would still rather pick up a chanter/bard/scout because necro don't bring anything to a group and dont have burst dmg to burn down mobs. not all pick up groups can be all guildys and stacked like you dady Xills groups. 4. WRONG, EVREYONE here would rather hear what bigron has to say and DOES NOT WANT to hear what your dady Xill or you have to say. 5. YOU go troll somewhere else, the class needs a revamp and dense scrubs like you and your dady Xill need to keep your fail post to your self!
