On Lucan, the market has pretty much settled. While I hate using Lucan as an example because we've always had an odd economy compared to others, it does show the issues aren't universal. The botting argument has to be dropped. Not only does it come up too much but in this case, it's meaningless. Where's the real difference between gaining skill-ups through transmuting and the current system?Pristine isn't even needed.If anything, removing the crafting aspect makes it more accessible for those who never wanted to craft and those who don't see the logic in consuming the very raws you are supposed to be producing. More practically speaking, at worst, the costs stays the same as it is now; Likely, costs will actually go down for leveling since people aren't consuming so many raws and leveling transmuters are no longer driving up raw prices. I've also considered the option of crafting other subs for actual use but the more I considered it, the more it seemed as pointless as old subs were; a needless component to cover a system weakness and the lack of actual depth.
Oakbark@Splitpaw wrote: Defense on a 2 hander isn't a horrible thing. Crusaders in particular still tank wearing 2 handers a lot, and they are starting to put two handers that you could clearly tank in into the game (Axe of Unending War, and the Sword of Pure Valor spring to mind). I'd like to see it beefed up a hair.. +10 Def and +10 parry or something, but that may be asking a bit much. +4% riposte.. dunno. But the point is, in spirit, something that helps you tank with a 2 hander isn't horrible. Hate and DPS are completely separate. I'm personally wearing both the 10DPS neck and the 2% haste (and the 10DPS ranged, for what it's worth). They all stack, and the 2% haste belt stacks with the 20% haste 2 hander adorn. My only beef with the 2% belt adorn is that it should either be made treasured or pushed up to 5% or so. Snorm -- 70 Guard
When transmuting and tinkering came out I went transmuting because I loved the idea of being able to customize my equipment, boost stats of myself and guildmates, and I knew we would need someone who would put the time in. It seems much of the customization has gone away, as in every slot there is one best thing to get. Many of the resists are too low to matter with the mitigation/resist changes that came out with EoF. Gear that is relatively easy to obtain gets you near the point diminishing returns really kick in. My choice is +100 to 1 resist or +70 to health; the 70 health helps me on every encounter and is nearly 1% of most players health at lv70 (some classes such as fighters/priests have quite a bit more I do realize, but the classes with high health tend to have high resists as well - especially priests with the wisdom they tend to have) and +100 to one resist at level 70 is typically less than 1% more mitigation to that element. For me to be better off with the resist (lets say on a ring), I would need to get all 7 resists on separate rings and switch them in as necessary; however this would not help me vs. all the other damage that could be done to me such as crushing/slashing/piercing. So you end up being better off adding 70 health (if we are talking about survivability) to your best rings because that is an extra 1% damage that could be done to you before you die against any type of damage. Due to this I rarely see people use adornments that add to resists. This goes for many of the other +resist adornments as well. I believe that they need a small bump in power to make them realistic to add to items over other adornments. One thing I have found to be strange with adornments is that if I was to put one of the fabled adornments for the rings on each of my rings, I would be no better off than putting one of each of the treasured (70health and 70power). I would suggest that the fabled adornment be changed to having higher total stats than the treasured one. Also, why do these increase only every other tier rather than each tier? Personally I would like to see every slot (as well as every crafting class) have at least a few treasured adornments, one legendary, and one fabled (each could have more than this, but as a rule of thumb at least this many). There are quite a few adornments for melee classes (+haste, +dps mod, +procs on bows etc), but casting classes have it a bit harder. I would suggest looking at making some more adornments geared to the casters such as +spell haste, +procs to cast spells, etc. With the new hate changes coming out soon, it may be worth it to look into minus hate procs for spells as well as melee as well as + hate procs (or +hate straight up) that could be added to items (I would suggest not weapons as we have quite a few weapon procs already). Another thing I would like to see eventually would be fabled/legendary adornments that could possibly add to main skills used by each class. Maybe for a guardian + 50 to their single target taunt, +100 to a wizard's ice nova, +100 to the ward amount from a mystic's single target ward, etc. This would help further customize people as people would need to choose which skill they needed more if a few adornments for each character were available on the same item.
[p]Personally, I really like this idea. Also, some way to search for Adornments by slot on the broker would be extremely helpful![/p][p]Snowdonia@Runnyeye wrote: [/p]
Snorm wrote: Man, this is one I'd love to see. Give a warning both when you adorn it and when you go to change it to a house item. I don't know of anyone that makes their HQ items until they are finished using them anyway (other than when they first got them to see what they look like maybe). If you are done using it then it shouldn't even matter that the adornment is destroyed. If it were a non-HQ item it would have just been vendored, transmuted or feed to your altar anyway with the same result (adornment gone).
[p]Why can't the adornments be broken down by a Transmuter? After gaining skill points from making them after level 20, a Transmuter should be able to break them down so that a Treasured item yields 1 fragment, Legendary yields 1 powder and Fabled...nope, who would think of breaking that down! [/p][p]That will stop Transmuters flooding the market with those Treasured weapon adornments and give something back for the next combine.[/p][p]The +100 resist adornments are probably the most useless items. Might be better to turn it into a ward effect with a sufficient level to help protect the individual. A number of such wards could stack. Treasured ward to protect against 1 of mental, magic, heat, etc. Legendary ward to protect against 1 of noxious, elemental, etc. Fabled ward to protect against all.[/p][p]I'm not sure if adornments with a ward would upset game balance, but it would certainly give people another option for some of the slots if they had the choice.[/p]
My suggestions: Transmuting: I wouldn't think all of these changes would work, but a few of them would. (Doing all of them would be too drastic) * Allow Handcrafted items to be transmuted with a slightly smaller percentage to get a powder. * Don't increase powder usage in transmuter combines with the growing tiers as much. (T7 uses way too many powders) * Allow us to transmute adornments themselves * Allow us to adorn heritage quest items * More reaction arts for crafting adornments as a transmuter. They really should be the same as crafting. * Allow skillups on transmuting for transmuting past 100. make them happen 50% as often, but they should still happen. * Allow us to break down or combine transmuter subs. For example, combining 4 fragments gives us a powder, 4 powers gives us an infusion - but breaking down a powder gives 3-4 fragments. * Same thing as above, but allow us to up the tiers. 4 t6 powders combine to give one t7 powder, or something. Adornments: Other than stat bonuses and the occasional +1 spell crit, there are not many choices for casters. Sure, we can do the +14 INT thing on a few slots, there is a "satisfactory" spell proc on the neck slot (which is fabled but certainly not fabled in quality) - but almost everything else is geared toward melee. Healers have it bad as well, unless they are a melee healer. Don't get me started on the "increases spell damage by up to 25" bit those are really bad. Yes, we get them, because there is no other choice, but they really are no good, certainly not fabled. And of course, the cheapest adornments are the melee ones, because its what the transmuters do to level up! Its just not balanced enough. Suggestions: * Bump up the damage on the Neck spell damage proc by quite a bit, or at least have a few other slots that we can add that adornment to. * Have similar adornments for casters that the melee's have that are made by transmuters. I'd love to get a hostile spell damage proc on my wand like a melee player can get on successful attack. Instead of a life tap, make it a power tap. Melee players have at least 3-4 different choices as well, we get zero. * Make a straight power-tap on hostile spell adornment. * The encounter deagro is not enough for a fabled adornment. It should be 3000 or so at least, or should proc at least 4 times a minute. If I'm doing 2000dps to an encounter and this procs once a minute for 1000 or so de-hate - thats like a 1% deagro. I'm sure one could nit-pick my math but ultimately it really does not make a difference. * Ward procs. Would love to see a hostile spell ward proc or chance of a stoneskin. That would be a fabled one. * As many others have stated, getting something like +100 cold is really worthless. It would need to be at least 400-500 for anyone to bother, and then yes, we might put it on resist gear we have for specific encounters. * Charm slots need some adornments * Would be nice to be able to adorn a strongbox with weight reduction so that casters can actually carry even fractional amounts to a melee. yes, the coin consolidation is great, but this would be the next step This would be probably be a tinkered adornment, with some clever Gnomish name for the weight reduction. Just some ideas. Again, I wouldn't expect all of them, but take your pick of the lot agressiv
A rather minor thing, in the scheme of things, but I always have wondered why the ranged slot was chosen to bear a +dps adornment. Melee types can have their 1-2 procs, plus get the full dps mod from the adornment on their ranged weapon, but ranged types (rather type) just gets the dps mod (since we rarely ever use melee weapons beyond CAs here and there). I seriously doubt any would ever take a proc for the bow. Imo, it would be better to move the dps mods to the rings or wrists (though rings seems to be a better overall choice, since some people like the wrists' defensive adornments) and off the neck/ranged slot. Then add the HP/Power adornments to the neck slot (if it was rings that was chosen). This would still allow +20 total dps mod, HP/Power, and grant a ranged proc. Granted, I am a Ranger and thus I have an obvious bias, but I don't think it is fair that we don't get adornment procs on our bows (unless you are daft and choose that over a 10dps mod). Merkades, 70th Ranger. Siege, Najena. Edit - I suppose a way to sidestep the work of switching things around, or if say magi dislike the proposed change, would be to just alter the current ranged adorments to feature a proc +the current dps mod, those procs are not exactly a huge dps gain, so I cannot see this as imbalanced. The one who gains the most from it (Rangers) would only be gaining the proc they are currently deprived of.
DominoDev wrote: As the Dev Team is so fondly in favor of pointing out .. It is NEVER too late to fix a bad situation. I would fully support the Removal of Adorns from Transmuters as long as we could gain skill through Transmuting. (our primary focus) To balance out skill gain there could be a diminishing returns curve as we skill up .. whereas at skill 5/350 we would have a 80% chance at a skill up on a lvl 3 item .. we would have a 8% chance of a skill up at skill 200/350 using that same lvl 3 item but would have a 80% chance at a skill up on lvl 45 item .. etc .. Transmuters don't NEED adorns. Adorns NEED us! .. As for Tinkerers .. well .. I wouldn't care if the Adorns were removed from them and gave to the WW's .. since My Tinkerer IS my Woodworker .. lol .. but .. you could also give them new adorns that attatch to the Charm Slot (hex / crafting tools & any other none consumeable item) and give them things like +alcohol tolerance, +safe fall, or +Weight Reduction .. silly things like that .. Tinkerers are a rather silly bunch, anyway .. ---- I'm also in favor of a complete overhaul to the who gets what for Adorns .. something along the lines of what MW2k2 suggested .. All Ring and Wrist slot adornments are allocated to the Jeweler. All Neck and Ear slot adornments are allocated to the Alchemist. All Chest and Leg slot adornments are allocated to the Armorer. All Throwing Weapon and Cloak slot adornments are allocated to the Tailor. (Better) Melee weapon and Hand slot adornments are allocated to the Weaponsmith. All Bow and Shield slot adornments are allocated to the Woodworker. All Head and Feet slot adornments are allocated to the Provisioner. All Waist and Forearm slot adornments are allocated to the Sage. All Symbol and Shoulder slot adornments are allocated to the Carpenter. Reasons I prefer the SLOTs to be divided is that #1 it would make it easier on the consumer to know who to contact for X-slot and #2 the Stats / Effects can be reshuffled and possibly be given in muliple choices. In the future those Stats/Effects deemed to good to be easily acquired on every slot can then be given to us in the form of Rarer Books on Adorns. IE: if I really wanted to I could eventually cover myself in +Agi adorns. Options are good. But, the current set up is rather limiting and overall very confusing. Edit Add: Oh! I did a quickly look through the Resist Adorns .. And YES I agree. The Resist ones are the most worthless ones of the bunch. They need to be #1 - Muliple Stat Resists (Treasured = 2 / Legendary = 3 / Fabled = 4/all) and #2 in the higher Tiers the bonus needs to be at least increased by 2x .. if not 4x .. Resists are a very focused upgrade. And, the higher one goes up in levels the more and more resists are required to even get a partial pass on that incoming MOB/PC spell ..
[p]Great thread.[/p][p]Many good suggestions here. As my guild's transmuter, I add my "Agree heartily" to:[/p][ol][li]+100 Resist is a joke. Nobody has ever asked for one of these. Increase it, make it multiple categories, make it a refreshing ward. As it is, these can just be removed.[/li][li]Ear and waist adornments are quite weak overall.[/li][li]Ring adornments are weak and rather broken (2 fabled adornments should be at least 2x 2 treasured. Having them be equal is . . . wrong.)[/li][li]It would be helpful if SOMETHING else could be done with all the adornments transmuters make for leveling. Making them transmutable themselves seems like the best bet.[/li][li]ADD THE TRADESKILL CLASS THAT MAKES IT TO THE ADORNMENT DESCRIPTION! This is huge, and seems like it would be rather straightforward.[/li][li]Fix the broker search functionality. Totally borked at the moment - no way to search adornments effectively.[/li][/ol][p]One additional suggestion to add interest to adornments: Set effects for adornments like on the EoF class armor. There are clearly a very wide range of possiblities here, but it seems like a very good way to add interesting effects with adornments without as much of a chance of creating imbalance. It would be possilble to add some really powerful effects with a set of 5 fabled adornments for example, but since that would necessarily take up 5 slots, it's less likely to result in overbalance as players min/max the selections.[/p][p] [/p]
Calthine wrote: Again I have to disagree with you Calthine. You must mean it takes hardly any capita. You see all the items you spend on transmuting will reduce your available cash. If you didn't transmute them, you could sell them on broker. I remember that you dont count raws as an expense either since you harvest them your self. They still are. For transmuting you need to get the transmutable items your self, the money loss comes from the fact that if you didn't transmute them, you could sell them. If you use materials that you could have sold on broker for 30g to make an item you can sell for 1g, that means you just lost 29g even if you collected the materials off from mobs or nodes yourself and didn't actually pay anything. It is still loss. This really isn't debatable issue, it doesn't matter where the materials come from, they will still have a value on the market and using the materials to make a worthless product will mean an equal loss. In transmuting, tinkering and crafting in general.
Timaarit wrote: Agree, but to a point - there are always opportunity costs of what you could do with it. But the amount of money you can get for these items on the broker now are the direct result of transmuters needing them to work with. How long ago was it that you could find Adept 1's at prices below vender buy back! Does this get us to the chicken and egg arguement?
I phrased my post very carefully. My perspective involves strictly cash-out-of-pocket. I don't believe in opportunity costs for stuff lying around to be picked up.
Calthine wrote: How about we just say that Transmuting is a very expensive skill regardless of whether that cost comes from .. Time Invested, The Purchase of Items or in the Lost of Potential Income and get back to the original intent of the thread ...
What if I disagree with those perspectives as well? Calthine did it the same way I did essentially. If you are in a hurry then yes, it can be expensive in all those respects- just like everything else in game. The way we did it though, the only opportunity cost that was lost was the first couple weeks when everything was at ridiculous prices- and most posters here missed out on that one. Calthine worded it carefully, and I actually disagree with that because it glosses over the truth here- it's only expensive if you do it that way . My total investment at best is 30pp(and that's a gross overestimation since I wasn't counting) because I was buying up t1 rares and crafts. However, I know for fact I broke t1 at almost 0 cost and only about 2 hours play and afterward I was raking in profit hand over fist selling raws I could profitably transmute. Transmuting is one of those things that varies depends on how you decide to engage it; there is nothing inherently expensive about it no matter what your measure if you don't engage it that way.
Back on topic as requested... I want to add this post into the discussion as well. Currently transmuters are completely bound to the RNG and unable to willfully respond to market demands. The latter suggestion in the OP with proper balancing could be a great tool to allow transmuters to respond to their markets without just taking a mass of item and praying.
Deson wrote: Lets reflect on this statement. I assume, with knowledge gleaned from test center, you did your buying up of T1 prior to the LU release to live.. a common practice, and correct me if I am wrong. However, this does not apply for players now, or in the future. Secondly, the process to level up on T1 only requires a dedicated, locked farming alt. There is no way that method is going to work without that, as today T1 still sells at an average of 3g per item on my server. Yes, it can be made to work cheaper with extraordinary methods. Name another tradeskill that requires the creation of an exp locked alt char to allow you to level. There is no way that you went back and collected chests on T1 mobs with your main. Ok, say you went the manufacture route and made t1 Rares to break.. guess what, you still used another skillset, time and effort, waste of materials, all something no other craft is required to have done for them. Rationalize it all you want, it is seriously broken. It takes too many machinations, too many locked alts, too much mass farming, too many phony shortcuts to make work. Every other craft in this game can stand alone. For ANYONE to say that transmuting works, as it is, put yourselves in the position of the Adventuror/Transmuter with no TS class, and then try to make it work without rolling an alt to feed it. It won't work, and none of the methods people used can make it work. If you take it as a stand alone tradeskill, without multiple chars or a tradeskiller to sell more profitable adorns, it IS inherently expensive, there is no way to gloss over that simple fact. Im leveling Transmuting on my Warden as she levels. You can say there is no opportunity costs.. well. She sells no loots but non-transmutes. She breaks all adepts and quest rewards. What little gold she makes adventuring goes into more items to break, bought from other adventurers. She gets no skill ups from any of this, from all of this loot that COULD have been sold she gets a small fraction of the mats needed to make a single skill point. She does make a little coin from T4 adorns.. but NOT as a transmuter, as an Alchemist.. and every adorn built takes away mats that could have been used to level. No other tradeskill consumes like Transmuting. Imagine being a woodworker, but, nodes grey out and are unharvestable as you level. Imagine these nodes single pull a "chunk of wood" similar to the loot table for wood chests. Imagine this "chunk of wood" then has to be broken down into various parts needed for woodworking, requiring two different parts, and what part you get being totally random and subject to the RNG. Then, tell me this version of Woodworker isn't "broken".
I'm not going to quote you because your statements are false and presumptive, and I say that from my experience and the experiences of Calthine and others that posted on it. I was 70/70 on my main when EoF launched and almost all my skill-ups came from harvesting, crafting then transmuting- I bought nothing pre-launch and actually did tinkering before transmuting(also all harvesting myself in 2 weeks). Anyone can use the method I did at any point in the game and with the way t1 rares pop, it's not as intensive has people make it out to be. I do agree it's broken, I've said it since launch and have repeatedly posted for changes in it. That however does not mean I can't see how easy and cheap it actually can be. Calthine and my experiences(and the experience of those who actually paid attention and decided to do it) refute most of the complaints here. As I feel this to be a derail, I'm going to go into the depth that was posted before but invite you to repost this in another thread so people can compare notes.
Not really. Earlier people did vendor most of the lower level treasured items certainly. Transmuting created a market for that stuff and thus raised the prices. However that is not the issue. Issue is that if you decide to farm for your transmutables, within the current system you could have sold those materials. If there was no transmuting, you wouldn't be wasting your time farming t1. So no chicken and egg argument. For me transmuting to 350 took about 80p investment and around 50p worth or materials I farmed myself. 80p was easy to see because that is how much my cash reserves went down from buying stuff on broker, the 50p is a guestimate from the amount of stuff I farmed. Now referring to Calthine, I could have continued farming t1 and t2 for the items but I was really in a hurry. Now when I farm t1 and t2, I just transmute and sell any powders for very high profit. Which would not be possible if I was still trying to get skillups for transmuting and would thus be considered as opportunity cost. Opportunity cost is not a matter of belief, it really does exist. Even SOE believes in opportunity cost as they have priced the treasured stuff on vendors.
I do plan to have my Jeweler main support my Transmuter when I get around to leveling the transmuter. I just wish there were more...interesting choices for some of the less powerful (and affordable) items. BTW I keep seeing RNG and I never seem to see what that refers to? Is ana artist not an anacronym-smith. :-D
