Edited: That screenshot gives an idea of where our class DPS distribution falls. The order of classes is pretty consistent on almost any burn. It's my opinion the class DPS represented here is the best DPS each class is capable of (within 5%ish). I dunno, Tirras is pretty dope..., although I think a certain Druid keeps him alive with out-of-grp heals. That's the only way he could possibly beat my alt monk!
8 casters in 8 top dps spots, and not counting necros that should be here too (if in range or bother dpsing), then melees... thats very sad. And this is a short burn. Now i just imagine what can be results of sustained dps fights.
Whats sad is the continued desire to use this event as the "fair" measuring stick between melee and casters. When in reality the script heavily favors casters in that if played properly only 1-2 emotes impact their parse, to a much lesser degree then for melee, and the rest don't. Where as melee are impacted by 4 or more of the emotes depending on how the guild handles it, to a very severe degree, and the rest don't. Nevermind the whole AC issue in all of TDS problem on top of it, even if this mob has less AC then other raid mobs in TDS as some people claim. This parse as far as a measuring stick for balance is as useful as me linking caster 1hb parses on trash mobs vs melee and then claiming the sky is falling. As someone else mentioned in another thread this raid can be a watered down pallorax (sp) raid if the script throws certain emotes at you at certain times.
In grp content I as a warrior have hit (none burn) 35k. But then again, I use an army, an stuff (tds trash) typically dies in 19 seconds, so i am 100% positive that .. that alone bloats my grp content DPS by geometric lvls..
Haha yeah he is. And Lenu is trouble for sure! As others have pointed out, Vitio isn't an ideal benchmark encounter, and fight duration from guild to guild is a huge X factor. Our average Vitio fight lasts 140 seconds and I average 133k (typically with sham/bard/zerk, but not always zerk). My personal best is 145k over 124s, leading me to believe that on a [smooth, favorable] 90ish second Vitio burn, my #s would only increase... likely enough to surpass the dope Rogue and make your mages nervous.
As I've said before, I don't always parse, but when I do, I prefer my parser is next to me....stay thirsty my friends...
OK then which mob would you choose to parse ? Apparently this one is the quickest and less ac mob and we know that longer fighter = casters supremacy atm
No deaths, but you're missing the line above my parse: "The versiopn of that fight that I broke down into shorter and shorter segments (it took us WAAAY longer due to low turnout and generally poor dps from all bar 1-2 groups) had this for the first 90 sec breakdown:" I had previously posted our full parse, which was more damage - 440 mill infact. The point was to show that *if* the event was dying in a similar time frame for us, we'd be seeing necros and maybe 1-2 rogues above the mages, and that even enchanters can sneak into the MS parse if they tried. Fact is it doesn't die that fast for us ;-). It also shows perhaps why - where are you wiz DPS!? In other words which classes do well, even compensating for differing lengths of fights, varies hugely between guilds. We have some top notch players in our very mid-tier guild, along with some, err, very mid-tier members . Such is life!
If played properly there is only really 1 emote that affects most melee (run away) and one that affects casters (hug, assuming there was a previous run away). There is a rear-arc emote that impacts rogues, but it's short and quick. I get the emote, delay, delay, move, announcement, move back I know some guilds have rubbish pins that have mob facing the melee for the entire duration, but that is a weak strat for the poor players. It's not needed for vitio nor Tita either It is however just one of many yard sticks - how do we all stack up on a very simple event. Obviously more interesting is how we all stack up on the other more complex events, but they're by and large unparseable or far worse on melee vs caster punishment (I'm look at you arx#3!).
There are very few fights that duration wise cater to burst dps. There are very few fights that don't have some script/mechanic that impacts melee dps more then casters. There are no mobs with "normal" AC in TDS. Caster's adps can be used in succession for prolonged boost, melee adps for the most part can't. So there are no mobs/raids that are a "fair" comparison to be used in TDS. You fix most/some of those issues first to then start making true comparisons regarding tuning.
These all depend on how the guild handles them but: Move to front: hurts all dps except dotters but melee more so. Unless your guild flips him in which case melee gets hurt a bit rogues a lot. Move to left: can hurt melee dps more then casters. Most people over react to this and move out of range for some or all of the time. Move to right: can hurt melee dps more then casers.Most people over react to this and move out of range for some or all of the time. Move away: hurts melee way more then casters. Casters delay a cast by 1-2 seconds, melee stop dps pretty much entirely for the emote. Hug: shouldn't hurt anyone. Tank Swap: shouldn't hurt anyone. You underestimate the impact of the bold you listed above. You show how short your "spike" for dps is over and over in parse graphs and then down play the fact that 6 seconds of being "off" the mob during your peak burn isn't a big deal. Verse a caster maybe taking an extra second or two to move and then back on the mob normal. Melee are impacted more on this fight then casters. AC on this mob is still higher relative to previous raids even if its lower then some other raid mobs in TDS. Even guilds that kill this fast put is just on the tail edge of what most consider burst so its not ideal for a burst class. The rest take longer making its duration last well into sustained which then allows for double IoG or BW to further muddy the waters.
I really dont know of a better event in the current expansion that is a pure burn parse fight. Emote wise isnt but one that truly effects melee and one that effects casters, other then that, and those 2 emotes are few and infrequent considering a guild dont take like 10minutes to kill it, its a tank and spank event. Now if we want to talk about sustained dps, thats another story, imo AM 1 is a good event for that, yes an emote on that one too but not overly frequent or detrimental unless your unlucky enough to get it a ton of times.
really melee wise only move away, and IF you get the one, hurts, east west emotes is just a matter of moving one side or other on him, your moving and attacking so loss is minimal at best. Depending on how your guild fights it, dont ever have to worry on behind, some pin his back to wall and I ve seen melee including rogue fry him just fine from the sides dont EVER have to be in front or behind him. Front is easily avoidable and if people are overreacting on the east west emotes, or left - right however we want to see this, then thats on them. The mechanic is easily avoidable.
People agree the AC is high in TDS. People agree that this event has emotes that impact parses differently for certain classes. Despite this people want to use this as a benchmark simply because its the least worst option so to speak. Just because some guilds can kill it fast enough to make it just barely a burst fight ignoring the above 2 points. Not because its actually a good measure.
I dont know, agree to disagree, one of the best burn /parse fights i've seen since Neriak 1 and burning hell out of the bonecrusher.. to each his own.
There is no front emote. The left, right, and rear arc emotes are easily managed by your tank changing Vitio's facing, melee DPS only ever have to move for the "run away" emote. Even if melee needed to move because your tanks are oddly immobile, DPS classes could strafe to maintain their facing and not lose a single melee round.
That all depends on what they're doing for the next expansion I guess. If it's more of the same, then fix the dps. If it's back to old style then I guess not. We don't know yet basically, but regardless it's the *shape* of the dps that is very broken. Massive burst and then low dps - I didn't do that shape dps in PoP, GoD, etc.
Front emote (aka not back emote) - really I don't underestimate it. I play a rogue and know the impact! We don't have to move until the last couple seconds, so we're losing optimal position for a couple secs. When moving, we don't lose attacks (we can keep swinging). When in front, I lose double/triple backstab, so maybe 20-30% dps loss for 2 sec. Really unless you're very unlucky on the timing then this emote is actually pretty minor. Left emote - we do nothing; we side pin on wall and tank flips. Right emote - as above. Hug - doesn't hurt anyone. Tank swap - likewise. Move away - obviously affects melee, but again we don't have to move immediately so you can cut it fine if you try. Clearly this is the worst emote, but our strategy is generally to not start burn until first emote so we can be sure it's not a move away one. Given that, it very rarely at the worst time. The parse I posted above was pretty optimal for me. Finally, yes I know it's not an ideal fight, but it's the best and it's the MARGIN that matters. If this was uber close then we could put it down to the fight, but it's not. Look at the graphs over time. First 1 min I can quite often be top dps. 90sec we're all battling it out. 5min (sadly it's taken us this long sometimes) and I'm maybe half damage of the top. That's a complete PLUMMET. This is what needs fixing, not AC. (Well on that mob - AC needs fixing elsewhere!)
Ok so *this* is why balancing melee vs caster just isn't going to work with a minor AC change. I'd call that burn pretty spiffingly good. The rest of it? MEH! Changing AC does nothing to change the shape of that graph.
