What are Warrior Advantages compared to Knights?

Warriors are already the obvious first choice on raid boss mobs. Stop being bad and exaggerating.

And also, other classes have endurance issues, not just you. Other classes cant heal themselves either when soloing and whatnot. So your discussing SK and Pally self heals etc here. You dont see Rogues and Zerkers asking for self heals to narrow the self-rescue gap and such. Maybe they should??????? lol - Anyway, that is what mercs are for. Pop your merc and go molo and stop crying and wondering why your dying when soloing when your class is clearly not made to solo.

A lot of what you are discussing here are also problems and issues that other classes have.

So I guess you want to have your cake and eat it too? I understand.

I've followed this thread nightly, even posted when I felt I had something to say.

What I do NOT understand though, is why Warriors are bashing Knights, as if WE were the cause of the problems.

Rather, wouldn't it make more sense for the warriors to come up with a few ideas that would help their class? Most folks I know would jump on the bandwagon to help the warriors.

Some help in the group game to make them more desirable, a bit of raid utility, what else?

If Battleaxe (Battleblade) ceased to post, the Warrior class could get a lot more done. Guaranteed.

Hes always had an abrasive attitude toward the Knights and hes always felt like his class should be superior in every single way. He always feels entitled. Hes also been a huge proponent toward Knight nerfs in the past and even the present. At times, he is passive aggressive about these things, and other times, he just outright blatantly says them.

It never fails. A very well done thread about Warrior issues will pop up. Some interesting ideas and things get said. Then here comes Battleaxe/Battleblade bringing up Knights....Ohhhhh but Knights have this...........Ohhhhhhh but Knights have that........Ohhhhhh but Knights can do this and that better than Warriors, when once upon a time, that wasnt the case. Among other things that get typed from his gelatinous fingers in a hyperbolic and exaggerated fit.

^And THEN folks wonder why the thread turns into a class battle.

Battleaxe/Battleblade will always have an axe to grind with the Knight classes.

So if Warriors are wondering why things turn sour in your threads, you have but one place to look: Battleaxe (Battleblade)

A lot of us oldschool Knights (And even Warriors) understand what I am talking about here.

Major problem I see is disk sharing timers. And giving us tools that are nice but are limited by range. I went to beta and warlords grasp is good idea but the close range seems silly to useless! I was in hopes of it being close to that of an HA.

I'm kinda at loss though on this warrior vs knight on boss in raids. If a warriors times out disk/ aa plus is put in proper group they should be able to tank all day long now. I use ventrilo and coordinate with SK on timing out on the limited events that require over 3 minutes of tanking. Xorbb1-PoS-Evantil-Reborn-Grelith, come to mind, Reborn varies on emotes.

The dps issue really I don't worry much about tbh. If I wanted to top parses I would reroll as wizard or necro.

Things needing changes are mainly making all new disk use seperate timers. Not sure why flash is on same timer as our aura? Not big issue but seems silly.

Excuse me, but the knight reaction to the "Connor, many of the things knights are asking for..." post and the long knight campaign to see Warrior defensive abilities removed from the game or shared IS the root cause of these issues.

Since Defensive reduces the DI contribution to incoming mob damage (genius design) it was pretty simple to distinguish between low DI group and raid yardtrash mobs and high DI raid boss and friskier group mobs. Setting aside things like Attack, vs. a high DB lower DI mob Defensive does next to nothing. Vs. a high DI mobs Defensive can make a significant difference.

Ideas?
Past ideas I've posted:
the Warrior "heavy armor" advantage after taking into account knight self buffs is ~146HPs total - improve Warrior gear

In LDoN, groups are unwilling to wait for RNG driven Warrior aggro and prefer knights with their at-will at-range and fast refresh aggro to tank - provide Warriors with an at-will at-range aggro ability.

In group content Warriors are as justified to benefit from their Class Defining Abilities as knights - set aside some nuisance mobs and named mobs with loot not needed by knights and not on the progression path where Warrior "unmatched ability to survive" matters
.... [10 years of suggestions omitted]
Tricksters Augmentation an Enchanter illusion available to non-raiders, Symbol of the Planesmaster (Raid), and Gloves of the Crimson Sigil (Raid) should be updated and an item rather than just an Enchanter's buff should be made available to non-raiders.

Um 12 years out of 14 with ideas posted by me. I'll be frank - while there was a Class Correspondent program there was a lot more on forum discussion and suggestions. Some CC's set out to lead discussion (and some didn't). The Warrior, Cleric, and SK correspondents were quite active.

There are problems with making suggestions:
1. They might not be consistent with a direction devs are taking and one they will not discuss.
2. The problem isn't seen as urgent. SOE has priorities and the less urgent even IF perfect is the enemy of the shipped and good enough.
3. NIH (not invented here). There are some ideas that are terrible but they are invented inside SOE so in they go. And the opposite is true. On the whole however EQ has looked like a Rube Goldberg device with this or that idea tacked on seemingly just to see how it works in production - a lot of players suggestions in it.

Warriors and guild officers will settle down into their little discussion groups and discuss this stuff. Some will post publicly and a lot will PM. What you see in EQ Live is the above water part of teh iceburg. There's not visible feedback as well.

Kelefane, you have not replied to Lanthor's parses once. You have dodged them like the Plague.

If a warrior takes 5-10 percent less damage BUT the knight heals themselves for 2 Million Healing
Are warriors the obvious choice by the facts and by the numbers?

(Which is more than any Healer Main on the Raid. In fact you can think about it this way if the ideal healing is about 12 healers. Then with a Knight Tank you have 13, and in essence have 8% More Healing available, probably more since some of those 12 may not tank heal much. In our typical parse its prob 8 heavy healers on tank, with a Knight making 9 thats 12.5%))


Or do people just think Warriors are the obvious choice BECAUSE they don't know any better, or have an agenda. Heck even some warriors like insaneox don't know better because they havent tried it. His ideal group of War/War/Pal/SK would be better if it was SK/SK/SK/Pal or Pal/Pal/Pal/Sk)


PS: #1 Does anyone else notice the people attacking are all SKs.
I suspect because a couple expansions ago, Paladins with Splash started to Megashine
And at one point SKs were somewhat phased out of Guild Lineups for Warriors and Paladins
And SKS are now getting recognized for Parity or More with Warrior and spots. So they fear Warrior improvement will bring them back to House of Thule status. All the while, any guild that has a choice would take 2 Paladins for every warrior/sk in thier roster.

Certainly those guilds with 6ish active Warriors are going to hope for some retirements and have to deal with sitting half of them out. And any guild without 4+ Paladins is likely to open recruiting.

SK? Well with at least 2 Paladins in the MT order SK's will have a greater role in add tanking.

I think every high end guild is going to experiment with Paladins in the MT order and their guild leadership will have to struggle with what to do given the results.

One big reason SK heals like that is clicking epic and going offensive. I do same with SK in group and my heal parse many times has me higher then most our healers.

And im sure your one of those people who think that a guild full of Knights and no Warriors would do just fine in todays raiding game, and raid and win at a very consistent rate without any issues with nothing but Knight tanks. Then when that initial progression push happens, things will be fine too, because gosh oh gee, Knights are just better at tanking raid bosses than Warriors are. Warriors are spectators while the Knight Jesus tanks everything at once. Poor Warriors, so useless now. You cant tank or do anything anymore. <---(That is pretty much what some of you sound like) and to be honest, its quite sad and pathetic.

So go ahead, continue on your little power grab campaign, along with the whining and crying that the sky is falling, and throwing around hyperbole and exaggerated comments like its confetti and meanwhile, those of us that actually know and understand what is going on will continue to raid and have fun like we always have.

And regarding parses? I dont need to post parses when I can sit and see with my own two eyes that Warriors tank raid bosses better than Knights do. So in your guild, if your Warriors are dying left and right to RoF raid bosses, deguild them and find better Warriors. Either that, or your Priest core is poor. Take a long hard look at your Priest core and ask yourself if they are doing their jobs. See if your Warriors are doing everything they can to survive themselves and so on. So stop exaggerating and start working on some solutions, because apparently, what you and others are saying here simply are not happening in other places on any widespread manner.

The hyperbole and exaggeration is strong with you. Its no surprise though, its what you are made of.

Also:

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I don't understand why, instead of saying wow those are interesting parses, but that does make sense that with this brand new defensive knights have got they are tanking a lot better. Instead people say, the parses must be wrong, I don't see it that way.

Kelefane you are the number one agendra driven person on this thread.

You give it away with your own words I don't care about parses which are objective dta I care about what I see which is subective and rooted in your own observational biases is a dead give away

As for our healers not being good enough.... well my guild has been first on my server for ages and top eight to fifteen in game for ages.
We like many of top guilds beag tier three within the first wwek of its release.

Last week we cleared all of tier two and three in two days. On every event that week we used knights in the main assist rotation.

Many events including luclin was flawless on main assist.

As a healer you know what I noticed? No difference whatsoever when it was a knight ma and warrior.
Not more deathes not more stress nothing.

New content... week two... and were not needing a warrior tank. That's the definition of tank parity.

And I realize part of this is rof had a much lower gear infaltion than previous content but I also see that as writing on wall and continuing.

Who cares if warriors mitigate a small amount better (5 to 10) percent if you don't need that mitgation to survive content?

In underfoot we had three to four raiding monks. In rof we have zero to one. That is the fate of warriors in next year or two as guilds relize relative merits.... recruit accordingly ... and people retire or main switch out of frustration.

Riddle me this....
If we have true raid tank parity?
If in raid game one tank class (warrior) offers less utility than sks and far far far less than pal?
If in group game a knight far outshines a warrior?
If in solo (and even molo) a knight far outshines a warrior?

What is to stop warriors from being the next monk and just fade away?

Well obviously pet tuning has just become silly over the past couple expansions, and while their survivability is very high, I have a hard time lumping them into this argument since you can't seriously have pets tanks non-ranged raid bosses. Where as knights can tank bosses with better aggro than warriors, but warriors can't tank adds with 1-2 healers as well as knights can due to how heal/self healing works 'in practice.'

High end guilds also almost always have a glut of druids.... while most people knowledgeable in healing, dps,and adps will admit druids are the weakest and least stackable priest class on raids. The glut of druids is due to the fact that when people created their main character (an average of) ~8 years ago, a lot chose druid, and alot chose warrior as well. With tanking, healing, and utility classes, recruiting has less to do with class balance than it does for DPS classes. If you're in an expansion where zerkers do 2x the dps of monks, obviously you'll put more effort into recruiting zerkers than monks.... where as recruiting non-DPS classes is more about finding a player that can get the job done.

In the years following /melody being added, more people were willing to play bards and over the years most guilds went from having more enchanters than bards to having more bards than enchanters, and many guilds are utilizing bard mez far more than they did in the past. Does this mean that bards mez better than chanters? Certainly not as they don't, but this -along with my druid example- is just pointing that guild recruiting practices and numbers of X class on guild rosters often has little to do with class balance, and even more so for non-DPS classes; guilds work with what they have.


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I do think that the warrior mitigation advantage is real, and that our survival abilities are more stackable than knights. I believe (emphasis on believe, not 'know') that mitigation abilities stack with our defensive discs but not knights, and have yet to see parses proving me wrong -- and this is how it should be since their defensive procs and self healing stacks with their vie discs.... so I see a lot of whining about knights getting multiple defensive discs misguided as we can stack multiple mitigation abilities where as knights can only use one at the same time. But unless they fix our minor discs that go to disc window instead of buff or song window thus rendering them useless in many situations, I could easily see a situation in an expansion or two where the knight defensive stack beats our's.

We're not in velious anymore. As much as people whine about final stand, our class balance in 2013 has a lot more to do with our secondary survival abilities like brace for impact, BP clicks, resp glory, hold the line, warlord's bravery, warlord's tenacity, armor of X runes, warlord's resurgence (lolz), AC discs, blade guardian, 1st and 3rd spire, etc. Devs need to keep these abilities relevant and stackable... and they only get a C or B- on the latter.

We have offered pages and pages of ideas they have used a few of the ideas but bent and twisted them into garbage.

Then the ideas that would also be the most beneficial they ignore and give us a remake of a stunning defensive disc that doesn't even give you a 5% boost while tanking ..

None of our defensive discs stack minus flash of anger the aa you speak of (minus the couple warrior only ones) are shared across all classes in a similar fashion and they also stack (but last 70% longer) within those 2 classes or they are available cast by another class(druid bear/spire=warlord's tenacity without the negative effects) most of the stuff you even reference is extremely short term and stacking everything beyond final stand does not equal 3 discs being able to be used 1 right after the other and stacked with multiple things also . I could do all the math for you if you really want to know . Yes I have 2 mini defensive hotkeys that stack multiple things once final stand is down but they do not equal 25% mitigation at all which is their weakest defensive disc(and thats before they stack anything else) . Our Sneer line even with a vie buff on us also does not come close to touching reprove. I do not like class warfare either I have even offered ideas to give knights events to shine in their own way also. So you should be able to tell from my posts previous to anything that I just want everyone to feel like they are needed and have fun.

I agree there is a lot of room for improvement in warrior secondary abilities, some of them don't work, some barely work, but its all been posted numerous times already.

Things like whether phalanx stacks with final stand isn't really debated I don't think, if that is what you mean by warrior mitigation and defensive stack. The AA phalanx, to increase mitigation, states, this does not stack with defensive abilities, such as defensive and final stand.

Warriors have final stand, and now knights have their version of it and can self heal at the same time, and have everything they had before they got there defensive disc. The parses are linked, not sure if were debating what the numbers mean or whether its a legit parse?

It will take a long time before mid tier guilds start to notice any difference now that Knights gained another in a long line of advantages over warriors. Even at high end, many will keep warriors around as friends or for nostalgia. But to say that an equally well played knight isn't more useful then an equally well played warrior, is not supported with parses or numbers at this time.

Maybe each guild can retain 1 warrior as a mascot that runs out with fortitude at the start of each event. Till next patch when they deem for parity and fairness Knights need to also have their own version of fortitude.

Self heals are great against weak con mobs, while mitigation is superior against hard-hitting melee mobs, so yes there comes a point where less healing is required to keep a tank up that has superior mitigation, than self-healing. Then lets not forget that the self-healing from procs is something the knights do not control, having a critical heal go off when you are already at full health really does not help out too much. But that 5 percent extra mitigation is always their, even at low health when can make the difference between having a heal land vs death. Then lets not forget that knights need to wait for spell gems to refresh and they need to cast spells to keep aggro, so trying to time a self-heal right at the right moment can be difficult to do at times.

You can not judge a tanking class by a single expansion, because each expansion is different in how touch or easy the trash and named mobs are. When things are easy then yes self-healing wins the day over mitigation, but when mobs hit hard then warriors stand out at the top of the heap.

But really what do you guys want, a little bit of self healing is not going to do much, other help out the raid level warrior kill easy trash mobs. Like many other of the melee classes your dps gets a good boast when you are grouped with the right classes, so both your sustained and maybe even your burst dps is not that bad for a tanking class. But your job is to tank, not to dish out sick amounts of dps so a small increase in dps which is about all they would be willing to do, is not going to change anything. Dual wielding is just for looks, even if they were able to give that ability back to you, it will not help you out if your dps stays about the same which I have the feeling it would.

Not this crap again. I'm maxed. I want more AA... please. Give me another 5000 of them. I'm sure all those little boosts will add up, just like it has for every other class that happens to be capable of healing, and having their healing boosted by a combination of biggers heals, bigger crits, crit more often, bigger mana pools, bigger mana regen, etcetera.. to say nothing of the boosts they get from focus effects and buffs.

This is in my opinion the whole problem with hybrids. Every year you get 50 small boosts, ranging from better spells, more efficient mana use, better focii, better discs (I remember a time when those were for pure melee classes only), and AA improvements in many more lines then pure melee, all of them having an small effect, which are on an exponential curve. It's no wonder you eventually outpace classes that are on a more linear curve.

Part of the solution may require actually having raid bosses hit like raid bosses again, as the first step.

What I want is Final stand upgraded to mitigate the same melee and spell mitigation and give a 5% boost to dodge parry block and riposte and the disc length increased to 10 minutes (make it our bread and butter but better then it was).

At least 100 range added to all our aggro abilities.

The unlocking of every disc lines shared timer so we can choose to stack or use in succession what we want.

The vie effect on reprove to be put onto our sneer line or the sneer line boosted to mitigate 28 k damage (or whatever reprove mitigates)(and the same effect added to shield topple)

Proc rates increased on our mainhand weapon

a force of anger/damage augment for Warrior only introduced with an increased proc modifier(these two alone will increase our sustained dps and the amount of hate we produce by just swinging)

Make field outfitter/armorer a % based ac increase that is not capped and is an upgrade to our old aura

Battle leaps increase given to us without having to leap through the air like we were some goblin fired from a cannon

And lastly a charge ability that stuns a pack of npc so that we can rush into battle like were bad people !

I don't really care about dual wield anymore other then maybe making it a utility set up with a 50% slow proc 1 hander and a longer lasting snare proc on the offhand