Why cant we just add warrior only secondary slot augs that can be quested for? Give them some added ac close to what a decent shield would be...might lose out on some other stats but would be a good middle ground. Those wanting the option can go through the effort to do so and those happy with a shield would still get a slight advantage. Tank Classes Warrior should = best mitigation best sustained dps(why tanking with dual wield while mob is not enraged or high damage mechanic should be feasible) Sk = best burst dps, best aoe agro for add tanking Paladin= multplie roles including cure and heals near pure dps dps vs undead better mitigation then sk but much lower dps agaisnt living. with sk's taps mitigation about equal.
Warrior issues are broader than itemization. AC doesn't solve survival issues and augments can't fix internal imbalances in our AA. 2H weapons are probably an itemization problem however.
seems to be it would be a lot easier to either add a new AA line or just make it innate that: dual wield: parry skill increased by 100 (or parry chance by 15% or something) when dual wielding - if it's possible to do in EQ's code i think it would also be cool to have offhand ripostes for wars who are dual wielding, and/or the ability to proc a decent rune or vie or something from offhand-only attacks. seems to me that would basically solve the dual wield tanking issue from both a damage intake perspective and a dps perspective - still wouldn't be as efficient long term as shield tanking, but it would at least make it viable. 2h: crits get an extra 50% damage bonus, or just throw the knight solution at it with a much higher swing rate when using a 2h. wipe hands, done.
DW has traditionally been (not always, but overwhelmingly usually) the best DPS setup for Warriors and majority of classes that can DW. When the 2H damage bonus calculation was changed devs commented that this chiefly benefited Paladins and SK's. Warriors benefited too, but DW outdamaged 2H. It's a DPS setup. There was no special off-hand parry, rune or vie procs because DW never came with defensive properties. It only became the default DPS and tanking setup because of a historical oversight since corrected - Warriors, unlike knights, did not get 1 handers with ratios that were appropriate for use with a shield. S&B, the Warrior tanking setup, is fixed. The only loose ends (if indeed they actually are loose ends) are DW and 2H DPS. Given that these are DPSing with someone else tanking setups (do knight 2Handers have special defensive properties? You guys have a shield hanging off your 2Handers that I never noticed?) it's DPS that's a legitimate concern not increased survival when one uses all swords and 0 shields. The survivability of all of the classes that tank in EQ is in part influenced by our heavy armor - not a cloth or leather wearing low AC class in the archetype. You don't get armor much more protective than a big shield (AC-wise) with it's AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block. It is obviously how all classes in the tank archetype should tank all but trivial content. If knights hadn't gotten higher ratio 1Handers to use with shields they would have rightfully complained bitterly. I think it's a bit unseemly for a knight to attempt to deprive Warriors of their waay too late arriving birthright (we could use shields at level 1 and there were Warrior Only shields in the game prior to Kunark). Hands were wiped/done 2 years ago on should S&B be the preferred tanking setup for all tanks in the Tank Archetype. On a positive note we're starting to see some new features on our shields - exciting stuff.
About as helpful as any post you've ever made. You even glossed over the fact Tearsin said it would NOT replace sword and board tanking. You just spat out your usual crap. We get it you love using sword and board of tanking and dps. Even when dual wield was a viable option the decent tanks I know still used a shield on challenging content way back then. Dual wield would be ideal for an intermediary setup. After all you don't really need two dps setups. Secondly your dps setups should actually do more dps than your tank setup WITHOUT relying on discs. After all your shield grants you a defensive bonus WITHOUT using discs. I know you are going to say you should do "typical" warrior dps while in your defensive setup, however your dps setup should be higher than your defensive setup without the use of dps discs. Thirdly if your dps and tanking discs are linked, I don't play a warrior so I don't know if they are, they should be unlinked. Everquest isn't setup where you can use two discs at the same time so the fact they are linked is ludicrous. Warriors need a little bit of love especially in the group game. This is just one option being suggested.
About as helpful as any post you've ever made. You even glossed over the fact Tearsin said it would NOT replace sword and board tanking. You just spat out your usual crap. We get it you love using sword and board of tanking and dps. Even when dual wield was a viable option the decent tanks I know still used a shield on challenging content way back then. Dual wield would be ideal for an intermediary setup. After all you don't really need two dps setups. Secondly your dps setups should actually do more dps than your tank setup WITHOUT relying on discs. After all your shield grants you a defensive bonus WITHOUT using discs. I know you are going to say you should do "typical" warrior dps while in your defensive setup, however your dps setup should be higher than your defensive setup without the use of dps discs. Thirdly if your dps and tanking discs are linked, I don't play a warrior so I don't know if they are, they should be unlinked. Everquest isn't setup where you can use two discs at the same time so the fact they are linked is ludicrous. Warriors need a little bit of love especially in the group game. This is just one option being suggested.
Of course it wouldn't replace S&B tanking. DW is for DPS - it's almost always been our best DPS mode. Now if you wanted to argue 2H should be an intermediate mode....is it for knights? You get shield benefits (other than 2H Bah) when weilding a 2Hander? Is there a 2H parry aug? Of course they are linked. Tanking is sword, shield, Fortitude, Final Stand, aggro, etc. DPSing is weapon/s AND offensive discs. Now if you are pointing out that offensive discs ought to be disabled when Warriors have a shield equipped and defensive discs ought to be disabled when they don't you might be on to something. That would stop people objecting to not tanking S&B DPS setups in their tracks and would solve a lot of problems. Don't knights have to equip a shield to use deflection? There would be no point to equipping a DPS 1H with a 10DMG aug on it with a shield unless it was to increase your undisced DPS at an aggro cost. Stagnate Warrior auto aggro and boost tanking weapon proc and aug aggro for a couple of expansions and viola - fixed. I'll PM your suggestion (that you were too shy to actually post and instead walked around the perimeter revealing its outlines). Devs could in fact fix things or maybe people don't really want fixed, they're willing to settle for not badly broken. One of the best things to happen to Warriors in the group game was shields becoming practical (in the same way shield use in group content is awesome for knights - I've played a knight and know it is). It narrowed a stealth advantage knights had enjoyed for far too long and in challenging content helps distinguish tanks from classes that ought not be tanking.
If I wish to pm a dev I'll do it myself. You clearly have no right to claim your pm is from anyone other than you. why would you even want to nerf your own class by making it where your offensive discs are disabled during any stance? They should be unlinked from your defensives. Knight defensive and offensive discs are not linked, why should yours be linked? Your dps setup(s) need a boost. Which has been said multiple times and your response was to scale back shield specialist and improved shield specialist. It seems you'd rather have your class nerfed than get anything of value. I feel sorry of every other warrior in the game for having to put up with you. Hopefully, despite your rantings, they will be able to get some ideas through to the game developers and get the warrior class some positive attention.
That would only tighten the handcuffs even more. The last sentence doesn't even make sense. Can you point out the "a lot of problems" that rediculous idea would solve? Nothing like putting words into somebodies mouth and using it to do your underminding
Any PM I write is clearly from me - especially if I telegraph it's contents publicly. I would rather get something of value, shields becoming more practical for Warriors is clearly value, than to try to corner a dev in hopes of undoing that thing of value. I "bothered" doing some contrived parses today. I say contrived because any parsing not done under a range of actual in-game conditions is pretty contrived. Midasa's Dragon Slayer /w MKrarrg's Striking Stone and a shield (<- a tanking set up) (Polished Verdant Blade is practically the same ratio as MDS) did not out DPS Verdant Heartpiercer /w 10DMG aug and Chapterhouse Standard /w 10DMG aug (<- DW, a DPS setup) A true tanking setup does not out DW DPS. However, and here's one of the two "problems" (the other being our 2H DPS) Verdant Heartpiercer /w 10DMG aug and a shield (<- an S&B DPS set up!!!) did out DPS the DW DPS setup posted above. Understand however that several of the posters above have it wrong and it's not an accident: A tanking setup for Warriors IS (or should be) in part defined by: Weapon with an aggro proc use of an aggro aug - the aggro contribution of our automatic abilities is too great and Weapon/aug contribution is too small. Use a DPS weapon with a DMG aug and you ought not be able to hold aggro. Disciplines - they are as much a part of are we tanking or are we DPSing as weapon arrangement. Even IF devs do the right thing, either: Tie defensive discs to S&B and offensive discs to DW and 2H or Stop giving our tanking weapons such poor ratios and creating DMG disparities in our weapon augs so one can take advantage of mechanics and create an S&B DPS setup that does vastly different damage than our S&B tanking setup (Midasa's and Polished ratios are VERY similar to last year's DPS weapon ratios. 10 more DMG on an aug is huge). the adjustments needed are far different and greater than simply More DW (and 2H) DPS kplsthnx ~ DW and 2H do not have tanking duties - they are DPS setups (<- needs fixing). I rooted for shields being made more practical for Warriors because they always should have been equally practical for all of the classes in the tank archetype. I'm in favor of S&B being the default tanking setup for all heavy plate tanks. I'm not in favor of trying to handcuff a developer's hands in order to force DW as some kind of tanking setup when DW is for DPS nor to undo SS (which is needed) so Warriors DW 24/7 once again. IMO SOE will skull this situation out since it's pretty clear 2 years after SS went in they are being mousetrapped and in the meantime Warriors are using S&B to tank challenging content and for most of us our DPS setup is NOT the same as our tanking setup - it's just not DW/2H as it should be.
Without numbers to actually see the difference, your parse is worthless. The point is that DW shouldn't be equal to S&B, it shouldn't even be close. It should be at least 25% more DPS than S&B, realistically 50% more DPS. You say it was more, but HOW MUCH more is the important question. Is it even approaching 25-50% more difference? Here's a parse you could try that would prove your point better. Put on Elegant defiant weapons. MINIMIZE THE VARIABLES! No elemental damage (resist), no raid weapons (heroics), etc. Get 2 of the same weapon (long swords if you want) and parse one with using a shield, then parse another using two of the exact same weapon. Compare the damage result from that. The idea is to prove that the damage boost provided by Shield Specialist exceeds that of the natural damage done by dual wielding. Post the numbers. That will tell you about the bonus provided by the AA line, which is what we care about in this thread. Rinse and repeat using a 2-hander. That will give you the actual difference in DPS between S&B, DW and 2H. You want two IDENTICAL weapons to gather any meaningful data, otherwise the results are skewed in a certain direction. Do you really think SOE would parse using weapons attainable by only a small percentage of the warriors in the game? You're in an end game guild, using end game gear to parse this data. Your findings apply to a small percentage of the game, not the warrior community at large. For example, my guild has access to Chapterhouse Standard, but we will probably never beat BG2's raid, muchless get into Xorbb territory. Next, parse over several different situations using those weapons against current group content (trash mobs first, then named) how much damage you take.. Using a shield then using DW. Compare those two numbers, you can now measure the difference between tanking DW and tanking with a shield. That gives a reasonable starting point for establishing what needs to be boosted, or if it's just fine the way it is. Without actual numbers, a parse is worthless. Numbers aren't opinion, they are facts. Our thoughts on what are appropriate differences are opinion. However, if S&B is exceeding the DPS of dual wield, or is even close, then there's a problem. Then it becomes a worthwhile discussion to determine what exactly is a reasonable difference between our DPS and tanking discussion, and using those numbers, we can make an informed proposal to SOE and actually get some forward movement for the warrior class into the right direction. Hell, if you really want to get an even more awesome parse, grab a max AA'ed ranger to do the same parse with identical weapons and see how much more or less DPS do compared to the ranger (A DW DPS class). So, we should fit somewhere between our S&B DPS and a rangers DW DPS for our DW DPS. I'd do the above mentioned parse myself, but I'm missing too many vital AA's and levels to provide relevant numbers. You are in a position where you can prove once and for all that you're right. EDIT: On discs, the reuse timers on our discs are so much longer than other class (including tanking classes), that they really can't be factored in. That said, our DPS while using DPS discs are a totally different parse. That's our burn DPS, not our sustained DPS, which is really what we care about. As a separate parse, we can do a burn DPS count compared to other classes, and again, we shouldn't be exceeding a DPS classes parse. It gives us a fair measuring stick to where we should be in sustained vs burn DPS, not exceeding that of a DPS class. By how much less than a DPS class is at the ultimate discretion of the developers for maintaining game balance, but I think everyone can agree that we should be a fair amount less than a true DPS class. Our 2H DPS should be less than a zerker in full burn, our DW should be less than a ranger, and significantly less than a rogue backstabbing, etc. Also, if you're willing to do the parses like I mentioned above, do not count the DPS generated by strategic strike or cyclone blade line. Those will just skew the results even further. We're talking straight autobattle only DPS.
Weapon with an aggro proc use of an aggro aug - the aggro contribution of our automatic abilities is too great and Weapon/aug contribution is too small. Use a DPS weapon with a DMG aug and you ought not be able to hold aggro. Why? because you say it is? Obviously warriors holding agro WITHOUT wasting a slot for an agro aug should be seen as a good thing. It opens it up for an ac aug or a damage aug, although with it truly being a tanking setup I'd go with an ac aug. You shouldn\t have to rely on an agro aug to hold agro. Tie defensive discs to S&B and offensive discs to DW and 2H This would hurt your class as a whole. First if you KNOW you won't be needed in the tank line up you can bandolier out you weapon and go to town. Secondly with the /stopdisc command you can hotkey your tanking bandolier with a /stopdisc command and kill the disc bandolier to your tanking setup and hit a defensive within two keystrokes, note I'm not counting establishing agro from the mob merely the switching of disciplines. If you know you'll be in the rotation and you are three or four back you can burn an offensive while using you tanking setup just in case you have to jump in and only hit a /stopdisc hotkey and then go about your normal tanking business. It shouldn't be as much dps as switching to a dps setup, but it's more than just auto attack on and wait to tank. the adjustments needed are far different and greater than simply More DW (and 2H) DPS kplsthnx That may be, but even you have cried out about your dps not being where you think it needs to be. So why not get a dps boost to these setups. I know you want knight ratio one-handers, but you don't always get what you want. Sometimes you just might find that you get what you need. Outside of paraphrasing the rolling stones, do you really want to pigeonhole your entire class into give us knight ratio weapons or nothing? You also want passive or activated self healing. It really sounds more and more like you want to be a knight. Instead of making your class into one you should just main change. I'm not in favor of trying to handcuff a developer's hands in order to force DW as some kind of tanking setup when DW is for DPS nor to undo SS (which is needed) so Warriors DW 24/7 once again. Nor should they dual wield 24/7, but they shouldn't be forced to sword and board 24/7 either and just in case you see this as an opening, nor should they use a two-hander 24/7. What your fellow warriors are saying is they want some variety instead of always running around with a sword and shield and please stay away from the historical references. This is a game and as such does not need to be tied to historical facts. Even Dark Age of Camelot is far far away from historical fact and they draw upon historical locations. Warriors are using S&B to tank challenging content and for most of us our DPS setup is NOT the same as our tanking setup - it's just not DW/2H as it should be. The latter is indeed a problem, yet up above you said you don't want a dps boost to your dps setups. Your dps setup should have a high enough boost, without discs, over your tanking setup to make you want to switch while dpsing. Whether you think the other warriors are wrong or not is a moot point. By your admission above the parses are close enough, even with an agro aug, to be meh at best. Shields are great against challenging content. Ask yourself this, why do you need two dps setups? Wouldn't it be better to have a setup that allows you some leeway against content that isn't quite cutting edge?
Lololol. Dropping the offhand weapon and wielding just the primary 1Hander designed to be used 2 at a time results in roughly a 30% loss in non-disced sustained DPS. So much for your realistically 50%. The whole point of SS was to provide Warriors with the kind of high ratio 1Handers knights receive and are necessary to make shield use practical. The problem is simple. An adjustment like SS intended to make Warrior 1Handers practical for use with a shield can not do the job properly with both a 122+17/23 Polished Verdant Blade and a 107+1/19 + 10 DMG aug = 117+1/19 Verdant Heartpiercer. The gap between an aggro augged tanking weapon and a 10DMG augged DPS 1Hander is so great the DPS weapon ends up "too powerful". And that's just undisced sustained - it doesn't even consider a wide variety of content, group makeup, disced vs undisced, etc. A fix (I'm not for a minute suggesting what devs should do - they are the professionals and we are the armchair critics) might be to close the augged DMG/DLY gap between the tanking and the DPSing 1Handers. Do that and adjust SS to get the desired result with the current tier's aggro augged tanking weapon and since the DPS augged DPS weapon had the same DMG/DLY it's not better than the tanking weapon with a shield - it's worse with a shield since it has no aggro other than swing aggro. And it's better for DPSing since it has no aggro other than swing aggro. "Tie defensive discs to S&B and offensive discs to DW and 2H This would hurt your class as a whole." Only since it would prevent Warriors from mimicing knights who seem to have no issues using a shield and swarming huge masses of mobs doing incredible DPS from their /cough tanking setup. On the other hand tying discs to weapon setups end the whole DW s/b for tanking and S&B out damages DW and 2H debacles. Nope, can't use defensive discs with DW - DW is for DPS - Game Over. Nope, S&B might produce great undisced sustained when using a DMG augged DPS weapon (and hopefully lousy aggro), but since offensive discs can only be used with DW and 2H they'll far out damage S&B when DPSing - S&B is not best DPS - Game Over Thanks for Playing. Creating a DPS macro that did a /stopdisc and bandoliered one's DPS setup and a Tank macro that did a /stopdisc and bandoliered one's tanking setup isn't an insuperable burden. That's exactly what we do now should we be DPSing and need to tank. We click off Brutal Onslaught (for exanple) and bandoleer in our tanking setup. IF however devs and players are against tying defensive discs to S&B and offensive discs to DW and 2H then there should also be no objection to a DPS 1Hander with a 10DMG aug being used with a shield to create a S&B DPSing setup. After all Warriors can't DPS AND defend at the same time. Our best defensive and offensive discs lock each other out while one is running (as they should).
To any other warriors: I still stand by my desire for a meaningful parse. Like I mentioned earlier, I don't have the levels or the AA's to give us any meaningful data, but if anyone would be willing to throw the numbers up there for both tanking S&B, DW and 2H from both a damage received and damaged dealt, I'd be more than willing to put it all together and make a decent presentation we could give to the developers to try and actually get something happening. I'd actually totally write it up like a research paper, post it up here for additional notes and thoughts and get the warrior community at large to make a formal request to Sony. If we're the ones doing all the leg work, making suggestions and everything, I'd think it would definitely go a long way to actually getting something done for the warrior class. As I've been told, EQ is somewhat understaffed compared to other Sony projects, so I'd imagine anything we can do to help out would totally be progress in the right direction. If not, you lose a couple hours of your life, and I lose a few hours at a family restaurant and on the train going to work writing up our findings. I would also like to get a knight and a ranger to assist in this manner as well for additional comparison data. Like I said, I would really like to get these numbers collected with as little variables as possible, so I'd suggest DW elegant weapons (same weapon), or if you have the crafted weapons, that would also be cool. I mean if anyone would be interested in helping out, feel free to PM me and we can definitely get something going. Ideally, I'm looking for a warrior that's got pretty much all DPS, tanking AA's done (max would be awesome =P), a knight with the same thing, and a ranger that has max melee AA's. To Battleaxe (Others, feel free to ignore =P): So in other words, you're not even willing to prove yourself right, just interested in posting up more stupidity. Sad thing is, I thought I was pretty polite and professional in not criticizing you at all in my previous post. However, you respond with unintelligible garbage. You're not even worth the time anymore. All you do is spout idiocy with no real interest in supporting anything you say. You tout off the same dribble over and over again, thinking that if you keeping saying it, people will believe you. Don't you know? Insanity is defined as doing the same action over and over again, and expecting a different result. All I asked for was the parse of your numbers to actually support your statement, and gave you a method of providing actual meaningful data that can be used to establish where the warrior class should go. But, you're not interested in doing either, all you're interested in doing is crying and crying for the sake of crying. No one here, or on TSW actually thinks you have anything positive to contribute to the game, so what's the point aside from making yourself look bad? Some of us are here for the purpose of trying to make warriors more diverse, more interesting and giving us back at least a shadow of what we used to have. Despite what you may believe, prior to UF, S&B did have a place in the game, DW had it's place, and 2H had it's place. Numerous warriors and non-warriors have posted up attesting to this fact. All you're interested in doing is giving more power to S&B, because that's all you want to play. You're a selfish child, plain and simple. Notice, NO ONE here has suggested taking a single thing away from S&B, we're looking to add more viability to the other weapons forms. Meaning you can go on and continue to play the class you want to play, S&B 24/7 as you already do. The rest of us would like other options, the ability to use the other tools that were given to us, and the guy who has posted up numbers has demonstrated that S&B is more DPS than DW, 10%. Until you can actually provide numbers to support otherwise, your parse is as worthless as you are. We're just arm-chair critics? No sir, we're paying customers for a product/service provided by the company. The company has an obligation to us, the customers, to provide a product worthy of our money. It's called "Customer Satisfaction." Customers have plenty of power, it's called the power of money. If you want to railroad the warrior class into a path that'll make it even worse than already is, many players could simply vote with their wallets by leaving the game. You want that? Look at this thread, NO ONE here agrees with what you're saying, despite you trying to argue that you're right. Maybe take a hint that the majority of the class actually wants to be something more than it is? Nothing we're asking for is even remotely unreasonable, but you're taking it like it's the end of the world. "OMG!!! NO DW 24/7!!!! NO NO NO S&B IS FOR TANKING!!!!!" when no one here has even suggested anything remotely resembling what you're interpreting. If you don't have anything useful to contribute to actually helping the warrior class grow from behind knight tanking, then don't. Don't put in your two cents when it costs a dollar to play. /cue cut and paste stupidity.
Only since it would prevent Warriors from mimicing knights who seem to have no issues using a shield and swarming huge masses of mobs doing incredible DPS from their /cough tanking setup. On the other hand tying discs to weapon setups end the whole DW s/b for tanking and S&B out damages DW and 2H debacles. Nope, can't use defensive discs with DW - DW is for DPS - Game Over. Nope, S&B might produce great undisced sustained when using a DMG augged DPS weapon (and hopefully lousy aggro), but since offensive discs can only be used with DW and 2H they'll far out damage S&B when DPSing - S&B is not best DPS - Game Over Thanks for Playing. Tying your discs to weapon setups is ludicrous. You actually hinder your class more by even suggesting this nonsense. In effect you are calling a nerf on your own class. Is it any wonder why no one respects you. Our best defensive and offensive discs lock each other out while one is running (as they should). No they should not. You can only have one disc running at a time. If you /stopdisc an offensive disc you SHOULD be able to click on another disc as that one isn't running anymore. Locking them out means you cannot switch which limits your raid utility. Now there is a chance we are talking about two different things here. To clarify, the way I understand it, is if your disc are tied together you cannot /stop disc and start another because the timer is still greyed out. This hurts your utility. If they were untied you could boost your dps with an offensive disc, stop disc or it runs out, and still be able to tank with a defensive if needed. That would be win/win for your class. If they don't share the same timer then it's a moot point, but from the posts I read they share timers. Unlinking the timers would be a boost to your class as a whole. Does it fix all the problems? No, but it would at least be a beneficial step.
It was kinda funny, but back in OoW, there was a short time where you could stack mighty strikes with furious. I was playing around with it pulling entire zones with a 2H, pop mighty strikes and furious and watch everything just kinda die. It was funny as hell!
