Test Update 01/11/17 - Patch Notes and Discussion

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by EQ Dev, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. Vrinda Augur

    Good question. I haven't seen a response to that yet.

    As of tomorrow, it looks like merc and pet AC will be calculated with the same soft caps you and I get. And yes, a pet stat UI would've been a much better time investment than nerfing pets and mercs was.

    Too late. They've already changed it, and no, fussing with every single pet template doesn't seem to have happened. It's just a straight, across the board nerf.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  2. Zalamyr Augur

    That's fair enough from the standpoint of making everything the same. With that said, I don't think pets need a nerf and I say that as a tank.

    I think the pet's passive AC should be buffed to compensate for the AC they're losing via buffs, so that a max buffed pet has the same AC as it had pre patch. That equalizes the effects of buffs, leaves pets in the same state they were before while maxed buff, and slightly buffs them in situations where they weren't max buffed. Seems like the proper solution.
  3. Karthanon Augur

    Only raid buffed pets? How about just 'pets'?

    Those damned filthy casuals, they should just all quit.
  4. qourthon New Member

    This news made me really sad.

    I three box (all gold)

    Without a shadow of a doubt if this goes live, all 5 are cancelled.

    Not a shallow threat, but I struggle at times as it with 1 healer and a healer merc and my pet tanking, especially when I see other classes solo nameds :(

    I only returned to the game last year, and was enjoying making slow, but steady, progress through EoK, and (somewhat ironically) was enjoying the relative difficulty of the expansion.

    Devs need their heads examined if this goes live.

    Such a shame, and not to be melodramatic but this really could prove to be a significant death-knell to EQ (certainly as a group game) as I see a lot of groups setup around a pet tank.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  5. Sirene_Fippy Okayest Bard

    Took some time to parse a few things:
    - Earth Pet on Live vs Test
    - Tank Merc on Live vs Test
    - SK on Live vs Test
    - Earth Pet / SK using abilities or not

    Here are the results:
    - Each section | | is a comparison between Live and Test.
    - Purple = Test server. Notice how high things jump between Live and Test, but stay relatively static for the SK.
    - Earth pet defensives (Earth Elemental Strength, Prism Skin, Iceflame Armaments) made ~13% reduction in incoming DPS, but didn't affect average hit.
    - Overall the pet takes the worst hit, taking 60% more incoming DPS on Test vs. Live.
    - The tank merc takes 38% more incoming DPS. Although his incoming DPS was lower than the pet, I was unable to keep the tank merc alive on Test with 2 cleric mercs and a real cleric. (He survived 6.5 and 5.5 minutes). This is due to low total HPs (roughly 110k on the tank merc with Surety).

    - SK was self buffed, has the EoK rune proc weapon. When casting spells, used Repel, Bash, 1 Terror, Impose for Power
    - SK has 13613 Displayed AC = 4337 Mitigation AC and 2223 Evasion AC on Test.
    - Tank merc had 4880 AC on Live, 2046 AC on Test. Surety.
    - Pet AC unknown. Pet had Burnout and Surety, and when using spells had Iceflame Armaments.
    - All parses were vs. a 105 a drolvarg growler in Lceanium, unslowed.

    For Avoidance (Miss + Defended %) we see smaller changes, as AC only slightly affects it. Note the difference in avoidance between SK, merc, and pet.

    Here's all the # results (green = good, red = bad):

    Here are the most interesting DI / DPS graphs:
    Some of the DI spreads got messy, sorry didn't have time to redo them.

    Tank Merc Live:

    Tank Merc Test:
    Their DI spread is almost flipped, on top of having low avoidance.

    Pet on Live (no spells):

    Pet on Test (no spells):
    DI is really looking bad for the pet, taking a large amount of max hits, a wide spread throughout and lower avoidance than the SK and merc.

    SK on Test (no spells):
    This DI spread looks like what pet's used to. Although, this is a T1 mob so expected to be low difficulty. But the merc/pet parses don't bode well for their use in higher EoK zones.

    More images of these parses can be viewed here.

    For some perspective, here is a pet DI spread from 2 years ago during CotF, in the middle of pet tuning:
    This 2015 earth pet (pet changes round 4) did 2722 DPS and had 23.83% avoidance.
    Current earth pet does ~5750 DPS and has 18.21% avoidance.

    As an afterthought, I did Remorseless Servant Rk. III (not going to add it to other graphs):

    RS pet on Live:

    RS pet on Test:

    The RS pet is the worst tank of all, with over 25000 incoming DPS on Test and 17000 on Live. It does (very roughly) 13000 DPS when 1 RS pet is tanking (sometimes 2 were up).
    The RS pet has the worst avoidance on Live (16.64%) and Test (14.29%). It was difficult to keep even 1 RS pet sustained on the Test server, I had to heal it on my cleric (cleric mercs did not heal the RS pet). RS pet has ~270k HP.

    Here's my suggestions:
    Need a lot more AC. That's how pets have always worked in EQ. If we are going in a new direction - they need more avoidance. Regardless, in their current state, pet tanking is not a viable playstyle.

    RS pet specifically:
    It does ok damage for pets, but it shouldn't be the worst tank, considering it costs 4030 mana (base) and is temporary. Aren't these guys supposed to be the beefy mage pet offtank?

    Tank Merc:
    Needs a lot more HP, at least +50k at this point. This guy has only 117k HP with Surety. His avoidance wasnt as bad as pets, and his AC was really bad, but it was impossible to keep him up in EoK. Needs a big bump in AC as well.
  6. Seldom Augur

    Tanks are at an all time high in sustainable mitigation by large margin. Two of the three tank classes are at an all time high in aggro generation by gigantic margin. Not even going to get into DPS... Solution; nerf pet tanking capabilities AGAIN? I have no problem with this change if it were just to simplify tanking upgrades across board going forward but how hard would it have been to state that and explain boosts for pets/mercs are quickly on the way? Better yet, why not have already had that prepared to go in at the same time... I'm not a fan of how much slap in the face gets thrown around on these boards but this seriously was a virtual smack to a good portion of player base as things stand. Folks don't dedicate hours to the game to have things like their pets stagnated and nerfed for expansionS. This has gone past point of comical and ridiculous
  7. Warpeace Augur

    Mercs flat out stink and need reworked. Endless fun watching them get one rounded.
  8. Vrinda Augur

    Had this been done right, implementing the AC changes and simultaneously making an initial pass on tuning mercs and pets to keep them at about the same ability level they've had since EoK release, most of us would be fine with waiting another month for tweaks.

    Instead we get:
    1. mage earth pet tanks worse than a merc
    2. merc can't be kept standing with two cleric mercs and a real live cleric because they have virtually no HPs compared to mob hits
    3. other flavors of pet are pitiful by comparison because the earth pet has so many more HPs than any other pet does
    Oh! And no communication to indicate when or if there will be an attempt to balance this AC mess.

    This is the best you could do for your customers? Really?
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  9. Doucha New Member

  10. Derd Augur

    How are you all seeing into the future? The data was wrong on test and corrected for this patch.
  11. moogs Augur

    It effectively results in a nerf to pets and mercs.
  12. Sindaiann Augur

  13. Metanis Bad Company

    Well the solution to the pet/merc AC nerf is obvious. Let's give all the buffing classes new NPC buffs that grant huge AC/HP/Dodge bonuses. It would be really fun to make these new buffs last 29 minutes and have no visible icon or emote messages so we buffers can overcast by a factor of at least 3 to make sure that this time the buff really landed! Then we too can experience the joy felt by our mage/beast/necro friends!
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  14. Sancus Augur

    I do think that some may be conflating the current state of pets on test with how they will be on live. I wish we had been given a chance to test the final incarnation, but I'm guessing it won't be *that* big of a change.

    The real issue is how out of touch a pet nerf is - regardless of size - to the current state of game balance.
  15. Derd Augur

    Play with it on live after patch.
  16. Kunon Augur

    Did some parsing on Live after the patch.
    LvL 102 Necro Warrior, EM23, Full Mage Gear.
    Sigil of Doomscale Rk III, Symbol Rk. III, Skin Rk. III, Talisman Rk. III, Greater Ward of Vie Rk. II (before engage)
    /G Tanking summary for: Dingbat --- Total Melee --- Damage: 12655259 --- Avg hit: 9871 --- Attempts: 1732 --- Riposted: 39/1732 [2.25%] --- Parried: 34/1693 [2.01%] --- Dodged: 39/1659 [2.35%] --- Blocked: 64/1620 [3.95%] --- Defended: 176/1732 [10.16%] --- Missed: 120/1556 [7.71%] --- Hits: 1436/1732 [82.91%]

    Last night the same pet, same gear, same buffs and the same mobs.
    /G Tanking summary for: Dingbat --- Total Melee --- Damage: 24411115 --- Avg hit: 8797 --- Attempts: 2775 --- Hits: 2775/2775 [100&PCT;]

    Average hit is a little more than 12% higher for the Necro Warrior pet, but everything else is the same. That lines up with what Dzarn said. Since Necro pets have lower base stats than Mage pets they would take a bigger hit (higher than the 8% from his example of an Earth pet) from the changes to how Buff AC now works pets.


    However, after the change Necros (all casters really) tank quite a bit better than their Warrior pet with full pet gear.
    TMB Raid Gear: Visibles 1536/Non-Vis 3063 = 4599
    EoK T2 Group: Visible 1926/Non-Vis 2499 = 4425
    I'm full TMB Raid Geared, but have the Tome of Obulus equipped so same shield AC as group.

    Me vs EoK mobs this month
    /G Tanking summary for: Kunon --- Total Melee --- Damage: 41528954 --- Avg hit: 9728 --- Attempts: 6305 --- Dodged: 553/6305 [8.77%] --- Blocked: 331/5752 [5.75%] --- Defended: 884/6305 [14.02%] --- Missed: 969/5421 [17.87%] --- Hits: 4452/6305 [70.61%]

    Incoming DPS - 9689

    LvL 102 Necro Warrior, EM23, Full Mage Gear.
    Sigil of Doomscale Rk III, Symbol Rk. III, Skin Rk. III, Talisman Rk. III, Greater Ward of Vie Rk. II (before engage)
    /G Tanking summary for: Dingbat --- Total Melee --- Damage: 12655259 --- Avg hit: 9871 --- Attempts: 1732 --- Riposted: 39/1732 [2.25%] --- Parried: 34/1693 [2.01%] --- Dodged: 39/1659 [2.35%] --- Blocked: 64/1620 [3.95%] --- Defended: 176/1732 [10.16%] --- Missed: 120/1556 [7.71%] --- Hits: 1436/1732 [82.91%]

    Incoming DPS - 11,981

    Similar mitigation, but the avoidance makes a big difference. And that is with pet gear. Someone else can run parses on a pet without mage gear because I do not have the patience to summon a new pet every 30 seconds. They were already dying to everything and anything before the patch without it.

    All pets need a boost/fix to avoidance AC so that it works properly. On top of that Necro pets need a boost to their base AC or perhaps it is time to make it so at least the Necro Warrior pet comes with summoned armor so that it can tank as well as a group geared caster out of the box.
    Gyurika Godofwar, Vrinda and Sancus like this.
  17. ~Mills~ Augur

    This is a big part of the problem being a necro or a beastlord. Our pets are 60% the pets that mage pets are but take 100% of the nerf instead of it scaling based on them being weaker.

    IMO all three main pet classes pets should be equal at tanking. Not that its ever gonna happen that way. Mage pets should destroy them in dps and flexibility to certain settings by having 4 pet types vs 2 or 1.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  18. segap Augur

    You'd then have to equalize the available buffs, debuffs and heal abilities of the three classes. There's more to the pets than just the pet's profile. Then there's also intended role of the class and overall balance in a greater scheme that leads to differentiation. You're essentially asking for the classes to be merged with the differentiation being nukes vs. dots vs. melee dps.
    Sancus and Kunon like this.
  19. ~Mills~ Augur

    Somewhat yes. The 3 main pet classes in tank mode were all pretty close for far longer than that giant gap that has appeared in the last 4-5 years. Mages pets have always been better but the difference has grown to large for the devs to juggle. Their tuning always revolves around what mages pets can do and just cripples nec and bst pets because of how far they have fallen behind in tanking because of base stats, buff power, aa lines, pet gear and on and on.

    What was a small gap in total has turned into a small gap on 20 different things leading to a giant gap in total. Necros and bst pets should be something like 10-15% behind in pet tanking then country mile behind in dps. Not a country mile behind in everything at all times while still having something like 35% of all their spells and AA allotments being pet focused just like a mage.

    Right now a raid focused necro warrior pet requires raid buffs, mage pet gear, a slowed mob, a merc and the necro himself dedicating 5 spell slots to the pet in order to accomplish what an raid focused unbuffed earth pet can do, on an unslowed mob or even 2, with just the merc healing and only burnout on. Thats far to excessive.
    Gyurika Godofwar and Vrinda like this.

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