Yes u are correct I meant a player tank in a GROUP versus a pet tank in a GROUP. If they did some kind of a survey I bet they would discover there are 5x as many mages running box crews than molo'ing. Just because no one "groups" in eq doesn't mean there aren't groups, it's just box groups
Uh, no. It's obviously you don't understand why tanks use the DI measure. Hint: it has to do with raiding and constant topping off by healers with practically infinite mana - practically because the fight ends before the healers run oom, therefore it's safe to say they have infinite mana. In such a scenario it is indeed the case that only spikes are capable of killing you. But in a group with limited healing, you don't have the HPS to keep the tank at 100%, and not even practically infinite mana. A great example is merc healers, who simply have a drastically lower HPS cap than players. In fact, when fighting rare mobs with AoE abilities, even player healers don't have the luxury of topping everyone off all the time. In such scenarios, DI isn't all that matters. Tanks DO die by virtue of healers not having the HPS to keep up the group/running OOM. This is especially the case when working with tanks with massive HP pools but high incoming DPS ie mage earth pets on Test.
Couple molo HA's. Used current Air pet, weapons, jewelry.... Self buffs only + Merc with no healing AAs or gear. Into the Hills: Pet tanking: /G Tanking summary for: Akirage (Akilon) -- Total damage: 6274124 -- Avg hit: 3765 -- Swings: 3282 -- Defended: 1254 (38.2%) -- Hit: 1666 (50.8%) -- Missed: 362 (11%) -- Accuracy: 82.1% -- Dodged: 110 (3.9%) -- Parried: 92 (3%) -- Blocked: 249 (7.6%) -- Riposted: 122 (4.1%) -- Absorbed: 681 (20.7%) My ability to DPS: /G Combined: A tortured soul in 2624s, 48545k @18500sdps -- Akilon + pets 48545k @18500sdps Gaps are pull times, mages are tricky to single / avoid 3 pulls with. 2 pulls were NP, just required me to actually heal pet myself a couple of times. Bloodsucker spawned during the mission. Pet tanking named: /G Tanking summary for: Akirage (Akilon) -- Total damage: 573202 -- Avg hit: 6906 -- Swings: 197 -- Defended: 85 (43.1%) -- Hit: 83 (42.1%) -- Missed: 29 (14.7%) -- Accuracy: 74.1% -- Dodged: 6 (3.7%) -- Parried: 4 (2.3%) -- Blocked: 22 (11.2%) -- Riposted: 8 (4.7%) -- Absorbed: 45 (22.8%) My DPS on named: /G Bloodsucker in 123s, 5298k @43076sdps -- Akilon + pets 5298k @43076sdps Next mission-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scouting Ahead: Pet Tanking: /G Tanking summary for: Akirage (Akilon) -- Total damage: 4263933 -- Avg hit: 2799 -- Swings: 2991 -- Defended: 1094 (36.6%) -- Hit: 1523 (50.9%) -- Missed: 374 (12.5%) -- Accuracy: 80.3% -- Dodged: 119 (4.6%) -- Parried: 92 (3.3%) -- Blocked: 200 (6.7%) -- Riposted: 95 (3.5%) -- Absorbed: 588 (19.7%) My ability to DPS: /G Combined: A mosquito in 1850s, 38975k @21067sdps -- Akilon + pets 38975k @21067sdps Deathcaller Xylok spawned during the mission. Pet Tanking Named: /G Tanking summary for: Akirage (Akilon) -- Total damage: 547706 -- Avg hit: 4602 -- Swings: 185 -- Defended: 48 (25.9%) -- Hit: 119 (64.3%) -- Missed: 18 (9.7%) -- Accuracy: 86.9% -- Dodged: 8 (4.7%) -- Parried: 5 (2.8%) -- Blocked: 7 (3.8%) -- Riposted: 4 (2.3%) -- Absorbed: 24 (13%) My Ability to DPS during named: /G Deathcaller Xylok in 102s, 5725k @56124sdps -- Akilon + pets 5725k @56124sdps
This is a good example of what a mage who is actually trying would use, for "best case scenario" you'd probably want to go above and beyond with: Chaotic Benevolence (this is a big one) Aftermarket pet gear (possibly slow proc if you're really going all the way) Groundswell Stance Aggro swapping Buffed suspended pet OoW robe clicky Thaumaturgist's Infusion Other misc clickies (Underfoot belt, some of the RoF/CotF heals, Horn, Swarm pet clickies, etc) These are some of the things to use if you're trying to really test your limits. Just like with any class, there's an incredible rift between "Casually trying", "Really trying", and "Going all out" when it comes to killing stuff as a mage.
A warrior certainly would, and then after Last Stand fades => Shield Proficiency + NTTB, boom another 3 minutes' worth of taking ~50% damage from the mob. Don't confuse the warrior in VoA with the warrior in COTF today.
Here's a post by probably one of the better group warriors in the game, talking about what a player can can do in a realistic grouping environment, meaning using his active defenses and not afk: -- now a pet on test would have probably taken ~7k-10k MORE average hits until it died from the first spike, because there is no way in hell one cleric merc could keep a group-focus pet alive vs a t2 named like it could that warrior there. And I invite any pet parsers to try
He's also using a bard, meaning he's actually got access to slow unlike the classic mage+merc combo. He's also rolling with a full group, meaning a magician in a similar situation could dedicate their own time/energy to keeping their own pet up. There's no reason a magician going all-out couldn't tank at this level, but for safety's sake you could just bring two pet classes for redundancy and you'd be fine. That redundancy, instead of raw AC, is what really makes pet tanking viable at these levels of content.
Fluffy is EM 20 Magician earth pet. This was against a yellow con keeper near Sage spawn. No warrior should be tanking at any point without some discs or abilities running. Even when Last Stand is down Defensive Proficiency is a 10 hour buff for 25% mitigation. Also with BP clicks from CoA, CoTF, RoF whichever ones you have. Plus our AA and activated abilities any warrior who doesn't have something going at all times is not fully utilizing the class. Parsing your stuff constantly does help to improve your stacking and stretching out abilities and discs. You need to know when to use and each and what to stack together to maximize your tanking. In group in Tower of Rot yesterday we did 34 mobs going through partisan 4 for couple people. We never stopped pulls or pulled less than 3 at time with mercenary healer. Class utility is king for warriors. A pet looks to front end his stuff and then take spikes due to AI. While a player tank would be smart enough to spread his out. Neither the old stronger pet or the new one would out tank a well played tank. Brutial Warrior on Bristlebane
Not in group content, no. Against a single, hard hitting mob with high attack, like a raid named, the old earth pet would outtank the warrior yes.
False, unless the fight just went on forever and we totally ignore or get the parse long enough to water down PC defensive abilities. If the named dies in 2-5 minutes time then a PC destroys a pet anytime there isn't some aspect that avoids pets and this grows even more apparent with adds or multiples which is harder to parse out.
No it wouldn't. The pet was an alternative when the tank lacked skill or gear. Don't put all tanks in same group as that is false. Would it do better than some absolutely but not all. Brutial Warrior on Bristlebane
Large hp pool and huge amounts of AC meant earth pet did in fact mitigate and handle spikes better than fully top tier raid geared warriors under defensive. Skill has nothing to do with it, it's a simple numbers issue. Skill could make up for it to the extent that some tanks would live where others wouldn't, due to knowing how to stack discs and judging what was needed in any given situation, but in terms of pure raw tanking power it's a matter of how hard the mob hits, how often it hits you, and how well you mitigate those hits. There are no buttons you can push to change this. Pets were "better" at taking damage. Were they better overall tanks? No, of course not, I should have phrased it better I suppose.
If you die when a pet didn't you simply are doing it wrong. I mean would a warrior standing there take more damage of course he would. On other hand a well played warrior will out live a pet on a raid named. Warriors can hold flash and use if hit low percent for instance. You don't have to use it every time it pops and we can stack up to keep our spread better. I mean fort,LS, def pro, CoA bp, Cotf bp, Hold line, tenacity, blade guardian, auspice, bravery, third, GoM, resplend, brace, gut, AoExper and so on you get the idea. Warriors played correctly out tank pets. If a pet is out tanking you the problem isn't the pet. Also the NTTB only good in group game thing u mention in other pet thread is false. Utility varies by mob hit in tanking like rot raid minis for instance doing def pro, stead, ac ,nttb into LS back to def pro, stead, ac, nttb will carry you through the fight. I mean you will use activated stuff in there as well but you can see what i saying.
Ok, first of all, I don't think I know any warriors who will just click FoA whenever it's up. At least I would hope they all know better. Secondly, I would submit that in a 1v1 tankout with you and a pre-nerf earth pet, and provided heals are solid, the pet will outlive you 9 times out of 10 if the fight lasts long enough. Why? Because you eventually run out of stuff to click. That is fact; you have cooldowns. That flash of anger that saves you so many times? You can use it once, and then you have 1m30s or so before you can again. The pet however, will still have huge amounts of AC and a massive HP pool, and that alone was enough to allow a mage earth pet to live through just about anything short of healer failure (dead healers, too few healers, lag, whatever)(Edit: or, aggro switches, since pets cant lock aggro). Which is what I am talking about when I say raw tanking ability; the ability of a pet to keep going, and going, and going. Its tanking ability, even though in terms of survivability it is lower than that of a warrior under disc, is always on. Yes, pets do get some amount of activated defensives, but they are nowhere near the scale of a warrior's. The flip side of that coin is that the difference between a pet using said abilities and a pet not using them, overall is very small. The difference between a warrior under disc, and a warrior discless is huge. And this is great! This is how it should be, because it makes the game so much more interesting that the old afk style tanking that used to happen back in the day. Warriors are very well balanced versus content, both in group and raid. Also, I never said NTTB was only good in group game. I said that if the mob hits hard enough, it becomes nearly useless. Taking off 3.4k damage off one 60k hit isn't nearly as useful as taking 3.4k damage off ten 6k hits. And when you add in shining armor in the equation you probably won't even notice NTTB is running at times. It is, however, an awesome disc for those times when you are tanking stuff that doesn't hit as hard, but still presents a challenge. Total agreement there. Ultimately, it comes down to how the rest of your raid looks. And I think here's why experiences differ so much. If you have enough DPS to burn through encounters before you run out of warrior discs to use, then you won't have an issue and you won't have anything to gain from pet tanking. Or it can be the other way around, and you have a full warrior roster of well geared tanks, and a solid number of clerics able to keep them alive throughout encounters with little issue. But if neither of those are true, you may find you just don't have any discs left to use, and when that happens a mage pet used to be a much safer bet than a discless warrior, or even a knight. Because their mitigation and hp are always on, and because if one dies well, there are like 4-5 others there to take it's place and before even one of those die the first one is usually back, re-summoned and back to near full tanking capacity. Or simply un-suspended, fully buffed with all bells and whistles and ready to go. Ask yourself this, if you had 220k hp (or whatever a mage pet buffs to) all the time, and enough AC to take minimum hits almost all the time.. is there anything you couldn't tank with ease, even without every single one of those abilities you listed above? Which is why pets were nerfed. Although, in my opinion, it would have made more sense to nerf mitigation and increase avoidance to compensate and make them more like players. Since all of EQ has move from predicitive to reactive, all they will do by buffing AC again is put us back in the same boat with two vastly different approaches to tanking (player vs pet, avoidance vs mitigation) and only one approach to healing (reactive).
When was the last time a pet tanked a top tier raid boss, or for that matter why does it impact you at all? I don't see any top guilds doing this, its foolish, so why the big stink about it? Mitigation is just one small slice of the pie no? A well played PC > Pet 100% of the time.
And you are implying here, that in the group game most mobs, especially named, have a high DB and a low DI. If that were the case, then group tanks could get by with 10 AC fully buffed because damage spikes would not exist. It is true that group tanks are not at 100% health 100% of the time (I seriously doubt that is true of raid tanks, either), but generally they are "topped off" quite often throughout the fight. I won't deny that HPS is a factor, just as I won't deny that on occasion a healer will run out of mana (kind of rare for a shaman, though) but you are pretending damage spikes do not play a significant part.
