62. Racial Subclass System - Rogue I think that it would be possible to add a racial subclass system which to some point is already existent with race abilities, if it won't affect class balance to much. It could be advanced racial abilities that do get unlocked at certain PC levels in form of AAs. It would be starting at level 30 with 30 level steps (30/60/90/120) and being maxed at lvl 120. Basically just to add more spice and making the different races and the roleplay factor more interesting. The last few days I was busy with working on the rogue subclasses and balancing them to each others. It turned out that they all do need small combat improvements and all have their own special roles and flavor. This is an example to show how the system would work. My idea is that the concept could be integrated into the game step by step with two revamped and upgraded classes per new expansion. Some of the abilities could be used as general racial ability upgrades, but most of the skills are bound to the rogue class(es). I would like to receive your feedback about the balancing ! Do you think that a race or an ability/skill is overpowered or underpowered ? Explain why ! Wood Elf: Scout Can summon a temporary Eye of Zomm but with other name and style that can be used for scouting ahead and that does additionally grant the telescope effect which does increase the magnification. Does also receive a limited Tracking skill (like bard) and a Throwing bonus. "Eye of Zomm": T1 @lvl 30: ..Spiderling (infravision, run speed) T2 @lvl 60: ..Coyote (infravision, Spirit of Wolf speed) T3 @lvl 90: ..Black Wolf (infravision, Spirit of Cheetah speed) T4 @lvl 120: Sylvan Bat (ultravision, maxed bard speed (Selo), levitation) Throwing: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Throwing, +10% Throwing damage T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Throwing, +15% Throwing damage T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Throwing, +18% Throwing damage T4 @lvl 120: +16% Throwing, +20% Throwing damage . . Dark Elf: Assassin Can cast a short durating (1 min) Shroud of Darkness spell which does grant the target advanced invisibility. Would add a cool particle effect around the target(s). Does also receive a bonus for Assassination and stealth attacks (AA, being hidden). Shroud of Darkness: T1 @lvl 30: ..Shroud of Darkness (invisibility T2, self only) T2 @lvl 60: ..Shroud of Darkness (invisibility T2, single target) T3 @lvl 90: ..Shroud of Darkness (invisibility T2, group) T4 @lvl 120: Shroud of Darkness (invisibility T3, group) Stealth attack, Assassination: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% damage to stealth attacks, + Not available T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% damage to stealth attacks, +10% chance for Assassination T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% damage to stealth attacks, +15% chance for Assassination T4 @lvl 120: +16% damage to stealth attacks, +20% chance for Assassination . . Half-Elf: Trickster Can activate self only humanoid disguises (illusions) which do grant faction (race) bonuses (1000 points) and a charisma bonus (30 points). Small and giant races would be excluded as it is a disguise and not a real illusion spell. Medium sized races would work, including male and female versions of them for both genders. Those illusion buffs would never fade. Does also receive a bonus for the Begging and to the Backstab skill, which does not stack with weapon BS bonus. Disguises (male and female if available): T1 @lvl 30: ..Half-Elf, Wood Elf, Human, Zombie (orig.) T2 @lvl 60: ..Dark Elf, Erudite, Iksar, Gypsie m, Gypsie f T3 @lvl 90: ..Drakkin, High Elf, Green Orc (PoR), Vampire m, Vampire f (PoR) T4 @lvl 120: Doomscale Fanatic, Qeynos Guard (CotF), Vampire m, Vampire f (ToL) Begging: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Begging T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Begging T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Begging T4 @lvl 120: +16% Begging Backstab: T1 @lvl 30: ..+05% Backstab T2 @lvl 60: ..+10% Backstab T3 @lvl 90: ..+15% Backstab T4 @lvl 120: +18% Backstab . . Human: Swashbuckler Bonuses for Parry, Riposte and Bind Wound. Parry and Riposte: T1 @lvl 30: ..+2% Parry, +2% Riposte T2 @lvl 60: ..+3% Parry, +3% Riposte T3 @lvl 90: ..+4% Parry, +4% Riposte T4 @lvl 120: +5% Parry, +5% Riposte Bind Wound: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Bind Wound T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Bind Wound T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Bind Wound T4 @lvl 120: +16% Bind Wound . . Barbarian: Thug Evolving Slam and Intimidation skills. Bonus to Cold Resistance. Slam: T1 @lvl 30:...+25% increased success chance T2 @lvl 60: ..+25% increased spell casting interruption chance (and the bonus above) T3 @lvl 90: ..+25% increased stun duration (and the bonuses above) T4 @lvl 120: +25% damage bonus (and the bonuses above) Intimidation: T1 @lvl 30: ..+15% success chance T2 @lvl 60: ..+20% success chance T3 @lvl 90: ..+23% success chance T4 @lvl 120: +25% success chance Cold Resistance: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10 points Cold Resistance T2 @lvl 60: ..+20 points Cold Resistance T3 @lvl 90: ..+30 points Cold Resistance T4 @lvl 120: +40 points Cold Resistance . . Halfling: Thief Highly increased chance for being successfull at Pick Pockets. Bonus to the Sneak skill. Sucess chance bonus for evasion (/attack off, hide). Bonuses to Posion Resistance and Disease Resistance. Small race Dodge bonus (not as superior as Vah Shir). Pick Pockets, Evasion, Sneak: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Pick Pockets, +10% sucess chance for evasion, +10% Sneak T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Pick Pockets, +15% sucess chance for evasion, Sneak from the side T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Pick Pockets, +20% sucess chance for evasion, Sneak from the front T4 @lvl 120: +16% Pick Pockets, +25% sucess chance for evasion, Sneak from the front Resistances: T1 @lvl 30: ..+05 points Poison Resistance, +05 points Disease Resistance T2 @lvl 60: ..+10 points Poison Resistance, +10 points Disease Resistance T3 @lvl 90: ..+15 points Poison Resistance, +15 points Disease Resistance T4 @lvl 120: +20 points Poison Resistance, +20 points Disease Resistance Dodge: T1 @lvl 30: ..+2% Dodge T2 @lvl 60: ..+3% Dodge T3 @lvl 90: ..+4% Dodge T4 @lvl 120: +5% Dodge . . Dwarf: Safecracker Pick Lock skill bonus and increased success rate. Does also receive huge bonuses to Sense Traps and Disarm Traps. Does receive a bonus when placing traps on the ground (snare, mez/smoke, mantrap, etc.). This does also affect clicky item traps. Bonuses to Poison Resistance and Magic Resistance. Small race Dodge bonus (not as superior as Vah Shir). Pick Lock, Sense Traps, Disarm Traps: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Pick Lock, +10% Sense Traps, +10% Disarm Traps T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Pick Lock, +12% Sense Traps, +12% Disarm Traps T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Pick Lock, +14% Sense Traps, +14% Disarm Traps T4 @lvl 120: +16% Pick Lock, +16% Sense Traps, +16% Disarm Traps Ground Traps (own): T1 @lvl 30: ..+20% ground trap duration, +20% damage OR success chance T2 @lvl 60: ..+30% ground trap duration, +30% damage OR success chance T3 @lvl 90: ..+40% ground trap duration, +40% damage OR success chance T4 @lvl 120:+ 50% ground trap duration, +50% damage OR success chance Resistances: T1 @lvl 30: ..+05 points Poison Resistance, +05 points Magic Resistance T2 @lvl 60: ..+10 points Poison Resistance, +10 points Magic Resistance T3 @lvl 90: ..+15 points Poison Resistance, +15 points Magic Resistance T4 @lvl 120: +20 points Poison Resistance, +20 points Magic Resistance Dodge: T1 @lvl 30: ..+2% Dodge T2 @lvl 60: ..+3% Dodge T3 @lvl 90: ..+4% Dodge T4 @lvl 120: +5% Dodge . . Gnome: Infiltrator Can see invisible creatures including PCs (other rogues). Does also receive a bonus for Disarm (weapons) which is based on the Tinkering skill (mechanical knowledge). Does receive a cooldown timer bonus for the Escape ability. Small race Dodge bonus (not as superior as Vah Shir). See Invisibility and Disarm (weapons) T1 @lvl 30: ..Can see Invisibility T1, Disarm skill bonus = 10% of Tinkering skill points T2 @lvl 60: ..Can see Invisibility T2, Disarm skill bonus = 12% of Tinkering skill points T3 @lvl 90: ..Can see Invisibility T3, Disarm skill bonus = 14% of Tinkering skill points T4 @lvl 120: Can see Invisibility T4, Disarm skill bonus = 16% of Tinkering skill points Escape (AA): T1 @lvl 30: ..Not available T2 @lvl 60: ..Escape cooldown timer reduced by 10 seconds T3 @lvl 90: ..Escape cooldown timer reduced by 15 seconds T4 @lvl 120: Escape cooldown timer reduced by 20 seconds Dodge: T1 @lvl 30: ..+2% Dodge T2 @lvl 60: ..+3% Dodge T3 @lvl 90: ..+4% Dodge T4 @lvl 120: +5% Dodge . . Vah Shir: Predator Cat speed and cat reflexes: Run speed and dodge bonuses which are based on the encumbrance, similar to the monk. Does also receive a Safe Fall bonus. Run Speed (Velocity) and Dodge: T1 @lvl 30: ..+04 points Velocity, +4% Dodge (max values, both based on encumbrance) T2 @lvl 60: ..+06 points Velocity, +6% Dodge (max values, both based on encumbrance) T3 @lvl 90: ..+08 points Velocity, +8% Dodge (max values, both based on encumbrance) T4 @lvl 120: +10 points Velocity, +10% Dodge (max values, both based on encumbrance) Safe Fall: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Safe Fall T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Safe Fall T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Safe Fall T4 @lvl 120: +16% Safe Fall . . Froglok: Venom Can buff himself with a poisonous slow proc buff that does also include a poisonous damage shield. The slow effect will reduce the usefulness of the DS which is intended. Bonus for Swimming. Self buff: T1 @lvl 30: ..Damage Shield (Poison dmg) + Poison damage proc, 25% chance to add a 15% slow effect T2 @lvl 60: ..Damage Shield (Poison dmg) + Poison damage proc, 30% chance to add a 20% slow effect T3 @lvl 90: ..Damage Shield (Poison dmg) + Poison damage proc, 35% chance to add a 25% slow effect T4 @lvl 120: Damage Shield (Poison dmg) + Poison damage proc, 40% chance to add a 30% slow effect Swimming: T1 @lvl 30: ..+10% Swimming T2 @lvl 60: ..+12% Swimming T3 @lvl 90: ..+14% Swimming T4 @lvl 120: +16% Swimming . . Drakkin: Poison Master Bonuses for making, applying and using poisons (dmg, amount of procs, duration). T1 @lvl 30: ..+5% Make Poison, +10% Apply Poison, +05 proc charges, +10% duration, +10% damage T2 @lvl 60: ..+6% Make Poison, +12% Apply Poison, +10 proc charges, +15% duration, +15% damage T3 @lvl 90: ..+7% Make Poison, +14% Apply Poison, +15 proc charges, +25% duration, +18% damage T4 @lvl 120: +8% Make Poison, +16% Apply Poison, +20 proc charges, +30% duration, +20% damage
I feel like when you add combat bonuses the end result is actually just reducing the options available to each class. Modern EQ is a top heavy game with a lot more community focus on raiding and parsing than on roleplaying. It goes without saying that many players would feel obligated to race change purely for gameplay benefits even if those benefits are minor.
Valid point but if that would be critical, raiders would only play the best/same DPS class and that might not be the rogue. Which listed skills would be the most critical for raids ?
People compete to parse within their own classes. I'm not saying anything you listed would make or break a raid, just that any kind of tangible combat benefit is going to pigeonhole a large segment of the player base into a specific build. You see some of it on TLPs where a lot of tanks feel required to roll ogre, or in games like WoW where they make millions of dollars off race changes every time they touch racials and the damage sims change by half a percent.
While I agree that your idea would add flavor to the game, it would have to be done to all race/class combos, not just rogues. One easy way to do this is to get feedback from the community on what each should be, but the hard part of doing so is getting the community to come to a consensus on what those should be. The other thing is, as mentioned before, is that min/maxers would always go for the race/class combo that gets them on the parse. Gone are the days when RPG left the MMORPG vision of EQ. This can be seen by the very poor showing at guide events (people show for the reward and get tired of getting the all-purpose sword over and over again). You have raiders who don't talk to each other, you have boxers that are anti-social, and you have individuals who play one toon that can't find groups and log off. RPG does have aspects in many other MMOs (fo instance, WoW with unlocking other races), just the magic of it left EQ a long time ago. Most people don't spend time reading through NPC dialogue, and just look for the link to click on to get through it to get the quest/missions. All of that dev work to put in a story line for each expansion is often wasted by people who don't care about it and complain why the content is the way it is. I feel bad for devs like Qwalla who pours their heart into developing a storyline just to have people not care about it.
I like the idea because it adds an extra layer of class customization and roleplaying value. If the statistic bonuses are problematic I'd reduce their values until they aren't meaningful enough to cause disparity between races. Even if the abilities/skills were purely symbolic, I think it'd be cool to further expand the identities of our characters.
Most of those problems are home made and got produced by SOE and adopted by DBG later, because they had focused to much on raids instead of further developing the roleplay factors and the single group experience, which as example can be noticed with many underdeveloped character skills that got neglected for two centuries: Begging, Bind Wound, Throwing, Safe Fall, Pick Lock, Disarm (became useless because of magic weps), and the whole trap bundle (sense, disarm, place and use traps, fake floors) .. and most of them are surprisingly rogue skills. In the original concept the rogue was meant to be a support class and not an assassin DPS type so I integrated those skills into the revamp for the subclass system. I do enjoy quests, and their quality is sometimes even better than in the past. Tony Garcia was a good quest writer and one of the newer quests that I enjoyed was the one with the gnome rogue in the Steamfont Mountains (Misgnomer) during the 24th anniversary. Dunno if it was from Qwalla. There is an audience for good quests and stories but for sure not all players do pay enough attention to them. Absor was and still might be a dedicated quest and story author. A view into the past.
I think it would be good for the game. And as it is, races do have small stat bonuses, gnomes have tinkering, drakkin have a breath weapon, and ogres have frontal stun immunity. That never seemed to be an issue before.
The developers have spent the last 20 years getting rid of almost every difference between races. And rogues are actually the one melee class that can say they are in a decent place. And you have no idea how to make a balanced system (swimming bonus ... really?) Sounds like you need to get into D&D 3.5 and have a field day with all the books in that system. Stay out of Everquest design. For the love of Marr please.
For a new game this could be interesting, but not for a 25 year old game where most players are set with their main char.
Seems that players would end up choosing the one that does the most DPS and the rest of them would get ignored.
Various racial innates have over time been outright removed from the game or made irrelevant for a reason. This dog won't hunt
I'm all for more class-development (once the lag is fixed) but I don't think it looks like this. Good effort though.
Swimming is beside Ultravision the only racial bonus that Frogloks do receive and the skill does reach the cap quickly which does then remove the bonus so it deserves an improvement. I have to take and work with what the game does offer me if I don't want to defamiliarize it. As you have not been constructive yet, what would you change to improve the balance and why do you ignore the potential of the Froglok Venom self buff ? The most players would just stick to their current PCs. But it could be an inspiration for many players to create a new (rogue) class. Nothing will get nerfed btw, but everybody would receive some candy.
I think you underestimate the number of players who would change races if a new race bace sub class was introduced to one that would provide them the most DPS (or whatever their class needed) Some of the provided examples provide no real benefit for players.
Honestly, it's not even the min/maxers. Even a huge segment of casual players are going to pick whatever google says is the best race for the class. Nobody wants to handicap themselves from character creation.
Well my attempt is not to provide serious benefits but instead to make the class/race combinations more diverse and therefor more interesting. Sorry raiders, not much to see there. I do know that some skills are pretty useless in modern expansions but there also is the TLP crowd, new and returning players. Not sure if the concept would be welcome on TLP servers as it might be seen as to modern. There are different personalities, interests and play styles so I don't think that this would happen. No subclass should be overall better than others and so far nobody pointed out real balance issues. I added DPS skills to some rogues while others received defensive skills. For raids only the DPS skills would matter. Here what matters for raid DPS: Dark Elf: +16% damage to stealth attacks - Only for one hit at the battle start. Does not matter for raids. Just a bonus for soloing and partially for groups. Half-Elf: +18% Backstab - 6 percent points more than the weapon bonus. Not more direct damage, just a higher hit chance afaik and the number might be capped anyway (51 max ?), just like the +12% (34 max) weapon BS bonus so that it would be effectively a bonus of just 14-15%. I gave the class this bonus as a counterpart to the defensive bonuses that other rogue races would receive. Would raiders change the PC race because of that and if so, does that hurt the game ? Froglok: Poison damage proc from self buff. - As I had not defined the value the result is open but it will add DPS. 3% maybe ? Drakkin: The elephant in the room as the race can already make use of Breath of Venesh if being alligned with the dragon Venesh. Basically all raid rogues would already be drakkin even if not being alligned with Venesh for that unique DPS bonus but is that the case !? +20% damage for all used poisons if they do offer a damage proc. Overall DPS increase might be 3% ?
Here's the thing, if any of these suggestion gave even a few percent more DPS then they would be required by some guilds and groups and if they didn't then they are pointless and useless. Here's something to consider. Of the races that can play rogue class there are 3 that have some distinct out of class ability. Gnomes can tinker, Barbarians have Slam which is definitely interesting and Drakkin have a breath weapon quest and if they follow Venesh the Greenblood they get a poison breath weapon that has a debuff for poison. None of those are overpowered and can lend flavor to a character if you'd like. Unfortunately what I see a lot is people wanting to gain some real edge by suggesting any race/any class or some sort of complicated scheme that makes some new combo be the greatest thing for some class/race combo
I think you overestimate the number of players that care enough about that last 1% of dps enough to change races. Id say its in the minority by far.
