Shaman or Bard through the expansions?

Even in raids, bards can have a ton to do if they are not pulling. In plane of time I think I used to swap songs for just about every fight. On the flip side, a bard that changed nothing probably wouldn't even be noticed by your average raider... as long as they had mana song or overhaste.

OP specifically asked about later expansions so talking about only up to GOD is nonsense.

Also, your initial examples. Give me a war with bazu and a mage with coth and ill single whatever you want across the zone just as easily if not easier than a bard.

For those of us who know what the expansions are like Classic to DoN. I'll agree to disagree. Because once you hit Dragons of Norrath you have absolutely nothing to do and all the raid gear is actually worse than OoW. So you could literally just switch to the other class at that point if you wanted to change seamlessly.

I remember now why I don't get on the forums so much. 100% chance of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about arguing with facts. But alright bud, if you say so.

DoN isn't a later expansion. It came out 17 years ago.

/facepalm

Bards are your jack of all trades. There are other classes that can do what a bard can do but better, but a bard can do it all, so they fill whatever role you need.
Shamans are basically buff bots. Raiding: You buff. Grouping: buff and slow. Soloing: You kill really slow.

TLP's always start off with lots of bards then they all disappear either quitting or changing classes. But they always become scarce later on. 99% of the Bards I have had the pleasure of grouping with, aren't bad, but aren't good either. When I mained a SK on live for 15 years people were always in "awe" of how good I was because I played the class to its full potential while 90% of the people that played a SK were mediocre, making the class look like crap. Bards are the same, if you want to take the time to play a bard and learn it then make a bard, if you want to sit around and be half afk then make something else.
However, if your 2 boxing a shaman is pretty much the go to for the 2nd box for just about everyone (buff, heal, slow.)

I need a healer and a tank. I guess I can recruit 2 bards?

This is so crazy inaccurate I just assume you are playing p99.

Calling a sham a buff bot is as criminal as calling a bard a melody bot.

Its also amazing how we are talking about how awesome bards are and nobody has brought up some their most class-defining and powerful abilities because everyone refuses to speak past GOD.

2.0, funeral dirge, and fierce eye. If you really want to begin unlocking a bard's potential you need to play through at least SOF. It makes me question lots of the advice here

I've never really agreed with the "jack of all trades" description. Bards are made to do a lot of utility abilities and make other classes better at their roles, which is basically buffing. But the game is primarily built around tank+healer+DPS as "trades". And bards have situationally-decent dps perhaps (where you can charm), but minimal abilities for tanking (need to be able to take hits, which they do ok, but also to take aggro off a dps class, which they can't do) and healing, where they can do maybe one percent of what a real healer class can.

Speaking of posts about bards and their amazing pulling feats, shamans have their own amazing feats that involve actually killing stuff, not just delivering it to others. They can basically have all the mana they want to do everything all the time. Though it takes a lot of clicking. I'm not sure their soloing is all that slow either (it just feels slow). I don't think they make very good boxes on a truebox server, unless you're ambidexterous or something. Though just using them for heals/buffs/slow, as you say, is still a lot more added power to your little two-man crew compared to a bard box. Also if bards are pulling or cc'ing, they have to make a trade-off and you're getting less mana regen and whatever else. So a melody-bot isn't a terrible waste of a bard.

I do agree about raiding. As a shaman their least fun abilities (buffing, backup heals) are the primary things you're asked to do in raids. Bards aren't so fun either, but at least it's low effort. I think that's why both classes tend to dwindle in numbers.

The bard's most important role in a group is adps. They are masters at that role, hands down. In almost any given situation with a full group, a bard will provide more dps to a group than any other single character, if you add the dps they bring personally and the adps they bring to others. The only exceptions are very early on in the expansions before bards start to get their adps tools, or if you have your bard chain pulling.

There is not a single thing a Bard can do that another class can't do better. Bards just bring average to the table in almost every category. If I need DPS, I am not looking for a bard, if I need slows I am not looking for a bard. If I need CC I am not looking for a bard, etc etc etc. I am not saying bards aren't good, just that if your targeting a specific role in a group a bard would be the 2nd or 3rd choice.

Your just arguing for the sake up stirring up drama. "Bards can't tank" yes and no depends on what and how well geared. Again because it's clear you didn't actually read anything and picked out a sentence here and there to stir the pot. Bards are OK at just about everything, but will never be a number 1 or even a number 2 choice when people are looking for a role to fill.

And two the 2nd I played an end game raiding shaman from when the servers went live in 1999 to the end of HoT. I know exactly what a shaman does. Sounds like you have delusions about shamans or your play p99. (Which I have never played.)

Funeral Dirge.
Fierce Eye.
Quick Time.
2.0

Nah, bards are #1 overall adps. That's their role.

PS the role of pulling? Any class can pull. You don't need a dedicated class for it. It's a pointless role that absolutely disappears within a year on a TLP. This isn't 2001. Players are stupid OP and a pulling class is a dead concept.

If you were a buff bot on raids as a sham, you may need to be informed of something...

So you have played half the game and are missing the the expacs where shamans get some of their absolutely most powerful spells?

Great, now we know to ignore whatever you are saying.

BS. If you need dps and aren't looking for a bard, it's because you are a bad player.

TLPs end in POP. Didn't you know that?? We aren't allowed to discuss class-defining abilities given to a class later than POP because all classes were perfect and fully developed by then.

So bards become the best aDPS class in EQ? How close is shaman w/ their buffs?

Sham adps is melee-centric and enc is caster-centric while bards are elite at providing adps to both melee and casters. The staple for every group in a raid is a bard. All your melee groups should be bard + sham. All your caster groups enc + bard

I'd argue that bard is the best, and most fun class in the game, right up until the hole opens up, and they fall off a cliff for quite a while. The biggest problem with bard, is that their song list is completely fubar post hole. At on point in history, bard songs didn't have the same kind of level caps, they changed that, and did a horrible job of adjusting what songs work where and at what level. Up until the hole, you can CC and charm the mobs you'll actually be fighting. Lower guk is a perfect example. It's not just mez and charm either, it's pac.....you lose the ability to calm mobs as well, and that turns you from the best puller in the game, to just about useless. You can have an absolute ton of fun playing a bard up to level 45, but after that, it becomes very frustrating, and you are largely relegated to a buff bot. Given the normal drop off and expected life of a TLP, you probably won't make to the point where bards get good again.

Shaman is never bad, and in general gets better with every expansion.

Pretty easy choice.

Full disclosure up front... I did not read the wall of text on the previous two pages before making this reply, so I might be repeating what already has been said.

I'm no expert, but I have played on nearly every TLP season to date, and I can tell you with out a doubt that shaman is a must have class for raiding trilogy content.

Bards bring a ton to raids in the classic trilogy, and are highly desirable. But, if no shaman shows up for the raid, it's going to be a bad night of raiding. Both classes are highly desirable for raiding on a TLP server. You will be hard pressed to find a raid guild that will turn down either class.

As far as the grouping scene on TLP servers during classic, neither class is super high on the want list for groups forming. The vast majority of the time, forming groups are specifically looking for a tank (any tank), cleric, and enchanter. It's only after they can't find a cleric or enchanter that they start looking at shamans and bards. As the expansions start coming out, shamans become a more viable option when forming a group because they can fill the roll of healer and crowd control, and they get exponentially better at both rolls as time goes on. Bards on the other hand are only taken to replace the enchanter roll in a group if there are NO OTHER ENCHANTERS online, and usually the group looks for a long time before giving up and asking a bard to join.

That being said, bard is a very special kind of class that honestly has never been duplicated fully in any other MMORPG. They are truly unique in their gameplay, and if you have never played one, you should give it a try. If you are trying to find the most powerful of the two to play though, I believe the shaman is exponentially more powerful than the bard. Again... that's just my opinion.

What's the other 1 class that has mana regen? Beastlord (Spiritual Light, Paragon)? Druid (Protection, Mask)? Cleric (Yaulp, Armor)? Necro (Lich)?