Shaman or Bard through the expansions?

I played a Shaman once at raiding level up to the end of PoP. I was a glorified nanny. If the raid got poisoned/diseased/cursed I had to get my macro out and cure every single person. Barraged by tells from dps who kept dying (by not following raid mechanics) for buffs all the live long day (even some of our clerics bailed because of all the rezzing needed). Shaman dots get resisted TONS against raid targets, it's not how like it is for rangers and druids with the nice -100 resist modifier. Being a Malo/Slow bot got old fast. I dropped that character and never went back.

I could solo xp face tank anything, which was surprisingly cool. But ultimately it was a chore to raid with for me personally.

Also ... Our base heals are lower than both Clerics and Druids and our HoTs are weaker than Clerics... Meaning you have to land your Malos and then slows against every mob that comes into camp in a group setting before you can start healing. It's super micromanagement.

Yeah I just really didn't like the class, Lol.

If I had to pick between either (a) Shaman or (B) Bard as a main on a fresh TLP? That's easy, I'd pick a Bard, as they are overall less work.

If I had option C, I wouldn't play either one as a main because they are support classes and can be played almost to 100% effectiveness with macros. In the later expansions a Shaman will mold into a primary healer, but that's not until like Underfoot.

Listen to the wisdom of the two posts above. Shaman raiding is not worth the effort pre Luclin. Many, many annoyances and terrible rewards to show for it. Each expansion tends to solve a few annoyances and add several new ones so it's a rotating cast of what is pisses you off as a shaman. I get the feeling this never actually ends and it will be mild-moderately annoying for the entire game, because they had no idea how to balance Shaman so instead they added lots of tedium to them.

The lesson is main a monk, ranger or berserker and box a shaman or bard.

God I laugh so hard every time someone thinks shamans are "spot healers" over dps early on lol.

20+ year bard main here. I'm currently on Aradune which I've played since launch. So, my fresh/recent experience is Classic, Kunark, Velious, Luclin, PoP, LDoN, GoD, OoW, DoN.

Bard is extremely different from every other class in the game. The thing which sets them apart is the fact they can cast while moving. Including, AA's, clickies, potions, and songs.

Shaman is consistently powerful especially in a group setting throughout the expansions, period. Additionally, their 2.0 is top tier, really only rivaled by the SK 2.0.

Bards are less consistent, and I would say do not really hit full stride/power until Omens of War. While in the previous expansions they do a lot of awesome and powerful things there are a couple expansions where their Charm/Mez ability is for lower level mobs then you typically encounter in the end game content, which is a large part of their kit when it comes to soloing/grouping.

Both classes can solo. However, when Bard can charm (Again, in OoW they get Voice of the Vampire and can charm to level 68) they are definitely the superior solo class and very comparable for group content. They get an AoE slow that is on par with Shaman slow %.

Shaman soloing can be fairly slow especially in the early expansions. I would recommend always having Shaman in a group. Whereas in certain expansions the Bard can certainly branch off and do their own thing.

Long story short. If you are looking for consistency throughout the expansions from Classic - Gates of Discord Shaman is certainly the answer.

If you're looking for a unique class and you enjoy pulling and living on the edge, Bard is the way to go.

To recap, bards can be powerful in particular expansions but sometimes they get screwed over in the charm/mez department for an expansion or two along the way. Me personally I enjoy the challenge, and pressing lots of buttons and running around doing shenanigans so Bard is and always will be my one true love.

I also want to add in Luclin Bard's get aa's for critical hits so it was a ton of fun AoEing up to 5 mobs for almost 8k direct damage per mob. You turn into a little power house wizard. But it only extends to the amount of mana you have and it takes a looooonnnngggg time to get that mana back. But, great way to hit decent numbers on the parse as a bard.

But Shaman's are always a solid pick regardless of expansion. One last thing for Shaman's. Although their soloing is slow, it is extremely reliable. Probably one of the best solo if not the best solo class in the game. What I mean by that is they kill slow, so I don't recommend soloing for exp. But they are one of the classes that can solo very hard mobs whereas others either struggle or can't. One example in classic is Efreeti Lord Djarn.

The only real down fall for Shaman is the difficulty in which to get mobs single. But very very few mobs can win against a shaman 1v1.

Hope this helps!

Typically the reason your spell casts will fail is due to the slight knockback from melee. So, if you are facing the mob and your back is to a wall you will very rarely be interrupted.

This is the worst post I've seen on here. Stating a bard can be played 100% effectiveness with macros is insulting.

Luclin Era: When contesting for shards off named mobs, I would track a mob as it spawned (bard speed/track OP), run out to the named, pull it and get like 30 additional mobs. As I'm pulling the mobs back I would utilize Highsun on the adds and they would memblur due to distance acting as a ghetto fading memory. My guild was able to contest several shards from the top guilds doing this type of shenanigans.

OoW Era: Normally a group would hold down 2-4 named/ph's in Rift Seeker's Sanctum mostly due to the mobs being so far apart. I was able to hold down 8+ named/ph's by pulling across the zone utilizing Mez on adds to separate the named and then fade/tag to single named/ph's into my group.

These are just a couple of examples of bard potential when actually being played to its potential. Please, enlighten me on the macro's you would put together to get these same results?

One thing that sucks for bards is having to compete with the tanks and clerics for gear.

Shams also get elite group heals which a druid doesn't get. I have 3 separate instant lines loaded, 2 group HOTs loaded, 1 AA, 2 item clicks. This isn't including AA or heal totem.

As early as LOY shams get an elite group cure (Nadox). Clerics and druids don't and have only single (pureblood).

Druids have pathetic mana regain abilities so a sham can sustain way more while never struggling for mana. A druid before it receives their dumb bear thing is always struggling for mana unless surrounded by the most ideal group/buffs (or of they lazy and not playing their class well).

There's no "better" class between the two. It's a matter of what a player wants to do with their class.

Shamans are obviously amazing at their role, but have limited breadth. You've always got a niche carved out for you. This is true, however, of almost all classes.

Bards are "pretty good" at just about everything, but amazing at very little (especially through the early expansions). Even Vetis, espousing how awesome Bards are, is underselling Bard potential. Probably because the bard toolset is just absolutely massive, there are so many ways Bards can simply beat the system. Whether you're high-sunning mobs in ME to contest shards or finessing "call for help" mechanics to single pull something across an entire zone. You'll never win a DPS race against a monk... or hold aggro from, well, anyone really... I've never been bored on a bard.

Maybe this is just personal bias from experience, but there seems to be a higher skill cap on bards (mostly due to the bigger toolset) than other classes as well. There may not be much difference between a "good" shaman and a "great" shaman, but there is between a good bard and a great bard. (On the other hand, there's a bigger difference between an ignored box shaman and a mediocre player than there is between an autofollow-/melody bard and a mediocre player).

As someone who've played both on a TLP (Phinni and now Aradune) I must say that I enjoy bard a lot more once you get beyond PoP and get your class-defining Fading memory.

If you are the type of player who only enjoy the first couple of expansions and start over every time a new server comes out I'd probably not do bard, they are kind of boring until Luclin, and then really takes off in PoP

Bard is a high skill cap class because you can do a million different things.

Well that, and if we are extending this past a couple of these offered "this is what I do in group play!" perceptions to the larger scale raiding level, you have the fact that statement basically morphs into:

"It generally sucks having people main what ends up being the single easiest and most frequently boxed (by far) character in a game that will always end up chalk full of people boxing". And then having those mains constantly sponging up "main over alt" loot that from a pure guild perspective you'd almost always ideally rather see prioritized elsewhere if/whenever possible".

I mean by Velious and after about half the dps mains already have and are wanting to obsessively lug around their personal parse boxes, you essentially are left giving Shawdowknight #7293 a run for their money on the overall guild desirability scale.

Your post had some great points and I agree wholeheartedly. I think someone would be very hard pressed to argue against Bard being the highest skill cap class in the game. Now, in my experience depending on the era they absolutely can DPS race with Denon's Desparate Dirge especially when it crits for nearly 8k. I call it bard harm touch. But that is a short burst of damage and absolutely cannot be sustained. Again depending on era you eventually can permanently hold onto a pet (granted its a lot of work) and have a decent consistent parse but still no where near an actual DPS like monk.

Just to accentuate your earlier point, if we're speaking of contesting a mob, there are tons of strategies only a bard can really pull off consistently. Whether its charming a mob setting it to guard, running half way across the zone and hitting follow for it to instantly appear ontop of them. Drop the charm with invis and kill it. Or if your group is where the mob spawns or near it you can simply high sun a mob back to your group if someone is trying to steal it with aggro, etc.

Sorry, tangents! Just fun bard things!!

But the reason I actually wanted to respond to your post was the 'Bards are "pretty good" at just about everything, but amazing at very little." The one thing I can personally attest to is bards ability to pull. In the right hands (and here come the monk mains!) a bard is hands down the best puller in the game in almost all era's.

While feign death is an absolute monster of an ability. Bards have a very similar instant version with Fading Memories. With the addition of a multitude of tools for a multitude of situations with Mez, Charm, Snare, High Sun, Pacify, or just bard speed alone to split nearly anything in the entire game almost regardless of what road blocks the dev's come up with to prevent your ability to split. It's almost a fun puzzle to figure out in some scenarios.

Lastly, yes the contestation of gear to bard over clerics/tanks can be.. political to say the least. In particular era's you will definitely clash with your tanks over gear. Velious especially. My guild has adopted the "It's your DKP you earned it spend it how you want." mentality, gearing has not been an issue. The only item that was ever REALLY a guild leadership vote of "Not saying you have to but you definitely SHOULD, let that go to warriors." was Blade of Carnage due to warriors struggling to keep aggro. To be honest, as a bard you shouldn't have much interest in BoC anyways.

They both get better as the expansions unlock, and I'd argue every melee group needs both, this gets more important over time. As for which to pick if you're not boxing, that just depends if you like support or pulling (or just melody, which is extremely useful).

I think Shaman is the highest skill cap class in the game, especially as expansions progress. Their healing is very demanding. Keeping group HoT, recourse, twincasting splash. Between all that, slowing and potentially maloing (if your mages are asleep), syncing epic/aid, keeping up panther or composite (depending on era). On top of all that, trying to push your personal dps. Bruh.

Pre dot revamp necros are highest skill cap I would say. Bards? Not even close

Even current necros I would probably argue are higher skill than current bards. You can parse 'well' as a mediocre necro. But a great necro is absolutely insane and the fact you dont have a multibind and have to keep track of dots on multiple targets is pretty high skill in the terms of EQ

Having played a bard and a shaman I'll say 2 things... most bards are played poorly and typically as beatboxers... and both shm and bard can be played at very high levels, but their baseline level is still quite powerful and always sought after on raids.

The argument against bard skill cap you guys are making is in reference to live versions of these classes from what you're referencing. (twincast, etc.) This thread is definitely specific in talking about TLP typical life span of these classes which is Classic-GoD.. So, if we want to argue Shaman skill requirement vs Bard in those era's I'll be happy to stand my ground.

OP is not asking about current content versions of these classes. Just to help y'all stay in context.

If you are playing bard at the highest level. You are definitely not sitting in camp afk/melody.