I am hoping someone can point me to current information I can use as a class improvement guide for raiding Shadow Knights. I don't mind doing some spell line updates etc, but since I am not extremely well versed in all things SK, I am hoping it will be mostly inclusive with only relatively obvious things for personal updating. My intent is to use this guide to improve performance and tactics of our Shadow Knights and to improve my knowledge for troubleshooting/coaching, and eventually to use when my heroic SK becomes useful for grouping. For reference, I am a warrior and I typically do the tank/healer coordination and I am continually trying to help train and improve our raiders as I notice issues. Overall I feel great about our warriors, since I can recommend solutions easier and I have worked with them to get to a baseline I feel good about. However, I find it harder to utilize new knights due to gear issues in AM raids, so I assign them to tasks I think they can survive (adds) but those tasks are usually away from me so I have a hard time monitoring them. Consequently it usually means that new knight recruits are really not given much coaching until after they have already begun to establish bad/lazy habits and I don't know the lingo/order of operations well enough to correct them. When I assign knights to various activities in CotF raids I find myself thoroughly appalled by some of the needless issues that arise when I am not using my A-list players. Some of the issues are general tanking issues, but it is hard to be comprehensive without using specific spell/disc names and an order of priority to correct them. My biggest gripes: 1. Inability to survive initial engage of NPC's while healers change targets (aka death in less than 3-4 seconds, mind you this is on cotf raids or trash mobs). I really don't see how using deflection is so hard LOL. But for times when deflection is used, I would be unsure how to instruct them for survival. 2. Inability to claim agro from an established tank that isn't taunting or attacking (tank swaps) in a reasonable amount of time (greater than 10s often approaching 30 for the worst players). I would assume ageless+spear+projection would give them a successful hate lead in most cases. But I would like to see a couple successful "I am tanking this now," kinds of options. Like warriors have ageless enmity, AE taunt, and undivided that can be used with their usual taunts for this application. 3. Inability to keep agro during their whole disc time. For some reason some seem to just stop casting from time to time. I can appreciate having some issues with mobs during spell immune phases, but there are ways to front load agro, and it shouldn't happen on multiple mobs without those mechanics. Again this seems like giving a solid front loading of agro followed by an appropriate rotation of aa/spells to maintain. Our pet classes do quite well with their pets usually, but the mobs turn way too often. 4. Inability to appropriately engage and control a mob that start of an event. IE AM#3 with the undead trash. There are always 1 or 2 mobs that cruise around the raid at the start, sometimes more depending on who I am using. I would like to not have to use good tanks using AE taunt abilities to round up mobs so lesser tanks can peel them off 20s after engage if I can help it.
1. They should only be using deflection if the tank goes down (main mob or adds) to give time for healers to catch up or swap to another tank, or if they are picking up a wave and have other tanks to pull mobs off before it fades. On adds that are theirs, they should be using their 20% or 30% vie discs and should have a dedicated healer already, that's a communication issue at best. SK/Pal do not have a flash type ability that gives them time like a war for a healer to catch up, the heal team needs to have them covered and know when they need to cover them. The main issue with knights on initial agro is that they do one cast (which had better be agro), then its 2 seconds of cool down before they can cast the first heal on themselves or life tap, so at best if you use reprove line on initial you are gonna get 1 round before you need healing on you, 2 if the round was not very high and you can self heal. Also a good way we do it counter that and give a bit more, if to put 3-4 sk in one group and have a epic rotation going (they have to be close to each other) and you can use the blades line to give you a bit more healing before you get the first life tap off. also make sure all the knights have a hot + lethargy, reptile, shinning lines on them to give them extra healing/help too, I've had those save me long enough for other healers to switch. 2. this is where ageless and undivided comes into play or if the mob level is under the max for mindless, that will give 18 seconds to help too. 3. they need to learn to cycle terror, spear, challenge, and lifetaps + AE agro AA, also make sure they are all using VoT. They should have 0 issues with agro if they do spear > terror > lifetaps, and challenge when it fades from the mob. 4. This is mainly just a play issue, they need to learn where the mobs are coming from, target them, cast terror+ha then do the rest from note 3. Also note if you are expecting them to tank 2-3 they will need to be shown where all the mobs spawn/path and make sure they have the discs not on cool down to be able to handle that. while I hate making hot keys, if they need to have them make a hot key that does terror, improved explosion of hatred AA, HA, then improved explosion of spite AA, this will give them a ton of initial agro and get the mob right to them. Another thing to note is have them grab by Xtar # that can usually be easier than you get the one over here, because mobs run on spawn, and that can make it more difficult. I have good luck by standing in front of spawn point and pressing f8 then terror, but not many can do that as they don't have the reaction speed that I do, so I had to start using the Xtar method to help other tanks in my guild, and it has done good things. The 6 spawn in bixie 1 raid is an example of that. Also make sure they do not have any of their Xtar set to anything but auto so that it is the same for all the tanks. This also means that they should be doing /assist xyz instead of have a xtar set for assist, as assist is not a big thing for a tank. Also teach your sk's to note all the other tanks, and have them cycle through mobs and don't take them from other tanks if a tank is already on it, unless another tank has 2 then have them take the one, preferably the one they are not active on, the /assist can help with that
1. Deflection has a long reuse and is usually best saved for an oh crap moment or if they're about to die and need to stay alive. There is no knight flash and self healing in raids is significantly less powerful than against group mobs. 2/3. You also need to keep in mind how broken warrior aggro is right now for single targets with your approach...Knights don't have a "lock" like that; pretty much need to be chain casting to keep it going, so less attentive players aren't going to be as reliable. Also don't forget VoT, it's pretty stupidly strong for aggro purposes - anyone having trouble should get that. 4. For am3 I usually deflection, aggro them all then pull them into a corner for stun locking. This is often lots cleaner than relying on 8 people to pickup perfectly. Remember also that sk AE hate can be death if the other tanks don't sufficiently aggro their mobs, so it can be dicey at times.
That's like saying Harm touch, neither is up often enough, while I agree, it can be a ton of hate, its not what should be used as hate on a more common situation.
Thanks for the feedback so far. I am quite aware of warriors current strengths in raids. I know that pure number wise and with tool access there can be quite a discrepancy, which is why I am trying to focus on what I can reasonably expect from Shadow Knights so that they are meeting their potential. I know abilities like Flash, Wade, and Phantom Aggressor are not in the tool kit, and I don't expect identical results. However, I do have Shadow Knights that I raid with that are top notch, that I can expect to keep agro and survive and out perform and otherwise accomplish pretty much anything the event throws their way. They have enough tools to effectively do what I want from them (keep agro and survive mob rounds). They may not have 6s of protection from Flash, and a 50k agro lead, but they are running their abilities such to keep themselves going when needed, and enough of an agro lead that a minor hiccup doesn't lead to DPS deaths. I wish they had more time to formulate a guide for me. Instead I intend to create it and have them do final edits. However, in the end I expect to be the person giving the feedback, watching what people do and helping the works-in-progress. I know there are some amazing players server wide who probably have created this wheel for me, but I don't mind re-creating it. I am hoping to focus on an "if I were asked to do this, how would I do it." Follow by, "If Soandso were asked to do this, how would I help them do it." I hope to post something soon with my first round of ideas to firm up. I do try to use Knights in main boss tanking when I feel it is reasonable or necessary, so including discussions about 20m to 1hr kind of abilities is actually kind of preferred for my goals.
Try these as a base: http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.phpt=7606 and https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/...o-tanking-info-dump-for-the-commonwealth.180/
Whoever is next up in the tank line (war/sk/pal doesn't matter, could be every single tank in the raid) should be maintaining a super agro lead over the rest of the raid, with the method described here. When a swap is called for, the current tank fades/flops with the absolute confidence of getting to see the next badass already at 90%+ agro like he puts himself at every minute. No crisis, the swap happens on-demand and with a countdown if the healers want one. No need to burn Ageless/Mindless etc. Your knights pausing their agro spam, and the thing about slow pickups? Bad news, Belkar_OotS, there's no spell in the game to fix lazy. Time to get loud, minus-50-DKP style.
Guess the difference is I don't need and it and would rather save it for burn time to help take the main mob down faster. If your first target on add list then you need to use mindless hatred and its going to be dead before that wears off, or you have enough time to build agro that you shouldn't waste quick spear on it, but please, keep chiming in with stuff, it does make me explain stuff that I might otherwise not because I take a lot for granted because I have played an SK for a long time and it comes instinctively to me. As for main mob, raven does bring up the good point of quick spear, Main mob tanking for sk is different than add tanking because of duration. I usually use in order if on main tank: Deflection + HA + Ageless Enmity + Projection of Doom + harm touch - gives time for healers to get to you and builds agro start carapace/insolent and use diplomatic papers + 3rd spire + epic + presence of fear and veil of darkness + Visage of death + T'vyl's Resolve+ scarlet blade ( if the mob can out do that them use mantle instead and pass off to another tank before you need to use 20% disc) Then unholy guardian + first spire + quick spear + Cotf/TDS BP click Then use current mantle + anguish BP click - pass off during this phase Chain terror life tap spear and get in challenges and bond line when all life taps and spear are on cool down. always be casting AA hates while no adds are up. I have never needed to use it, but if people are catching up on agro you can also throw in undivided to help.
One of the main points is you can help them learn the abilities, you can teach them orders that they should use them in, in generic situations, but it more about situation and they need to learn what needs to be used when. With most knights/tanks I have found they are either willing to learn and implement or not, as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to to water, but you can't make them drink.
It sounds like these terrible SK's could use all the help they can get though! (and if they can't even get/hold aggro and not die in <6s, I am guessing they aren't at the skill level where burning is even a factor in their equation )
ABC - always be casting. He's right in that you basically can't stop, to hold aggro in a raid you really can't slack like in years past, though voice does help a lot too. Even just chaining terror, spear and taps with VoT on should be sufficient for most things, but that requires attention.
Here is an Example Tanking Spell Set for Raids 1. Vizats Skin 2. Staunch Stance 3. Dire Declaration (Big Life Tap) 4. Spear 5. Duplicitous Audacity 6. Terror of Piora 7. Terror of Narus 8. Impose for Power 9. Distasteful Bargain (AE hate damage) 10. Deceitful Deflection (AE hate self heal) 11. Bond of Bonemaw (Heal over Time) 12. Touch of Lutzen (LifeTap) Heavy Tanking - Defensive Side (3m on Boss) Before Engage or During Deflection - Voice of Thule (/alt act 7000), Vizat's Horror (Buff - maintain), Vizat's Skin (Buff - maintain), Staunch Stance (buff maintain), Fabled Ball of Golem Clay (clicky), BP Click, Epic, Other clickies including Diplomatic Papers, Blood Drinkers Coating, and Overflowing Urn of Life /disc Deflection Discipline (24s duration with Raid BP, 20m reuse) When Deflection Ends /disc Unholy Guardian (2m duration, 12m reuse) /alt act 1454 (Third Spire of the Reavers, 1m 30s duration, 10m reuse) When Unholy Guardian Ends /disc Doomscale Mantle (1m duration or ~1million mitigation, 15m reuse) /alt act 854 (Veil of Darkness , 1m duration, 6m reuse) Heaving Tanking - Offensive Side Engaging Agro - If claiming off another Tank - /disc Unflinching Acrimony Rk. iii (3 ticks of 100% mob attention, so mob turns to you even if you are not top agro, 10m reuse) /alt act 10392 (Ageless Enmity, 100% Taunt, 8m reuse) /alt act 3215 (Projection of Doom, 10m reuse) /alt act 9400 (Hates Attraction- Moves Mob and 18k hate, 2m reuse) /alt act 7755 (Scourge Skin - large DS, 15m reuse) /alt act 9403 (Visage of Death - Mostly DPS but will boost agro and some tap effects - 14m reuse max hastened) If First Agro /disc Unflinching Acrimony Rk. iii (3 ticks of 100% mob attention, so mob turns to you even if you are not top agro, 10m reuse) /alt act 3215 (Projection of Doom, 10m reuse) /alt act 9400 (Hates Attraction- Moves Mob and 18k hate, 2m reuse) /alt act 7755 (Scourge Skin - large DS, 15m reuse) /alt act 9403 (Visage of Death - Mostly DPS but will boost agro and some tap effects - 14m reuse max hastened) Maintaining Agro - Then Weave Spells/AA Spell: Terror of Narus (101) (Instant cast, recast 6s) Spell: Terror of Poira (96) (Instant cast, recast 6s) Spell: Impose for Power (102) (1.25s, recast 1.5s) Spell: Duplicitous Audacity (97) (0.5s, 11.5s) /alt act 826 (Encroaching Darkness - Snare 0.5s cast, 6s recast) If AE agro is acceptable also include /alt act 1275 (Improved Explosion of Hatred - AE hate instant cast, 1m reuse) /alt act 1274 (Improved Explosion of Spite - AE hate instant cast, 1m reuse) /alt act 731 (Stream of Hatred- AE hate instant cast, 3m reuse) Spell: Distasteful Bargain (AE hate damage) Spell: Deceitful Deflection (AE hate self heal) Work In Life-Taps as needed. Maintain Throughout (spam) /disc Repel Rk. iii /doability 1 (Bash) /disc Lacerating Blade Rk. iii /alt act 16073 (Banestrike) Trash Tanking - Defensive Side Before Engage or During Deflection - Voice of Thule (/alt act 7000), Vizat's Horror (Buff - maintain), Vizats Skin (Buff - maintain), Staunch Stance (buff maintain), Fabled Ball of Golem Clay (clicky), BP Click, Epic, Other clickies including Diplomatic Papers, Blood Drinkers Coating, and Overflowing Urn of Life Boss tanking disciplines may be used on trash, just use them intelligently if you may be called upon for boss tanking duties. /disc Vizat's Carapace (Bread and Butter Disc 2m duration, 7:30 reuse) /disc Unholy Aura (Sustained Off Tanking -5m duration, 36m reuse) /disc Leechcurse Discipline (Emergency Save Via LifeTaps/Damage - 4 ticks, Over 1 hr reuse) Trash Tanking - Offensive Side Engaging Agro - Rotate Between Depending on Kill Rate (/alt act 732 (Mindless Hatred - "I win" mob attention on white and lower con non boss mobs, Instant Cast, 1m recast). /alt act 9400 (Hates Attraction- Moves Mob and 18k hate, 2m reuse) Maintaining Agro - Then Weave Spells/AA Spell: Terror of Narus (101) (Instant cast, recast 6s) Spell: Terror of Poira (96) (Instant cast, recast 6s) Spell: Impose for Power (102) (1.25s, recast 1.5s) Spell: Duplicitous Audacity (97) (0.5s, 11.5s) /alt act 826 (Encroaching Darkness - Snare 0.5s cast, 6s recast) If AE agro is acceptable also include /alt act 1275 (Improved Explosion of Hatred - AE hate instant cast, 1m reuse) /alt act 1274 (Improved Explosion of Spite - AE hate instant cast, 1m reuse) /alt act 731 (Stream of Hatred- AE hate instant cast, 3m reuse) Spell: Distasteful Bargain (AE hate damage) Spell: Deceitful Deflection (AE hate self heal) Work In Life-Taps as needed. Maintain Throughout (spam) /disc Repel Rk. iii /doability 1 (Bash) /disc Lacerating Blade Rk. iii /alt act 16073 (Banestrike)
I am at work so I can't really fill in the quirks myself right now, but I was hoping you could elaborate more on these items I highlighted in red.
Personally I'd rather Mem old lifetaps and or AE hate spells over a secondary terror or audacity. The lifetap dot in a raid scenario is also pretty meh, though it's decent now for group/solo play. Also keep in mind that in some add heavy situations you'll be better off defensively with mantle, visage and epic than you will with unholy. (Unholy and visage don't stack). Especially with leech going and t'vyl's and scarlet blade. 90% of a 300-1.5 million hit triple attack is a lot of healing. Anguish bp is a mini epic effect for when epic is down. Also, You forgot leech touch AA, an instant cast, long reuse lifetap. If it crits it's a big heal. And shroud tap proc buff as another to maintain. Oh and I wouldn't use 3rd spire personally, since 1st is pretty darn good for us and would get locked out.
Maybe, but I don't see any recommendations for improvement or explanations as to what would be suitable replacements or substitutions. I know spells sets can and will vary widely depending on play style and events. I want to try to establish an intelligent baseline as an effective starting point that can be tailored as needed. They are in a different order than I personally would probably but them but there isn't exactly a large number of spell orders to be found in Evil Gamer or here to compare.
Harm Touch high damage ability is commensurately high agro Presence of Fear high agro defensive proc T'vyl's Resolve puts damage multiplier on mob Scarlet Blade disc adds spell (lifetap) damage and boosts min melee damage Both used to make the SKs melee higher for self-healing via epic. Anguish BP : click epic-junior style self-healing via melee.
