Couple things here, 1. I specifically mentioned Shadow of My Shadow, which as a ton of undead. Then went on and said, Pally won't be #1 but you would be surprised how high they are. You must have missed that part. But it's not all undead, and a Pally can still be top 10 if not top 5. If you really need parses I can pull some. I my not be the best SK, but according to people like you a lobotomized lab monkey playing an SK can put DPS all but maybe 5 Pallys currently. Well according these parses I am either a lab monkey or my guild has 2/5 best Pallys ever. Maybe ask them what they do. 2) I only mentioned SKs after I said warriors, I never singled out any class you did. Again sounds like you have a vendetta against the class.
On an undead raid, yes, a paladin will be able to out-dps an SK if focused on DPS. Especially if they aren't concerned about tanking and are using a 2h.On Zland raids I have placed #1 by a mile before (as in 50% more DPS than 2nd place). However, those raids are few and far between. Even SOMS I doubt you are having a paladin place top 5 unless your other DPS have fallen asleep. I have been top dps on individual mobs on SOMS before but never top 5 overall. I have tanked 5 mobs simultaneously as well (hell, I tanked 8 simultaneously on Monday with a glyph), but not nearly as easily as an SK can. The reality is that SK are way OP. It's always non-paladins that are saying how easily a paladin can outplay an SK and never realizing that paladins have to be played perfectly to even be near a good (not even perfect) SK. Nor do they address that SK can heal themselves better while maintaining better aggro while out-DPSing the other tank classes (including healing themselves better than the class that's designed to be part cleric). That's not class balance.
So by your own admission, at times a Paladin can parse well, even top on certain mobs/ events. Pallys can tank multiple mobs at one time, up to at least 5-8. Never did I mention class balance, that's you. From what you are saying I am hearing, yes, Pallys have the tools parse well at times, yes Pallys can tank as well as SKs. But it's not as easy as it is for SKs. Then you go on to say, SKs are easier to play, SKs can heal themselves better than other tanks, SKs can out DPS other tank classes, and out aggro other tank classes. Point 1) SKs are easier to play. I'd say that is an opinion. Everyone is different, I am sure some people find SKs horrible to play, but Pallys are a dream. 2) Warriors essentially can't heal themselves at all, not in any form that really applies to this entire conversation. Pallys can heal themselves, the group, the raid, anyone in the general area. SKs can heal themselves, AND they can heal their group 1/min. Beyond that they can buff their group, who then can get 50% melee tap. Which is awesome, for melee. Doesn't do much if your melee DPS isn't good. This is a trade, one side get to heal everyone/anyone at will. The other side can heal themselves at will, or offer melee tap to their group every 5 min or a non consequential heal every minute. 3) SKs can out DPS all other tank classes, first not everytime (undead). Second, check a warrior burning. 3.5) SKs can out aggro all other tanks when doing all the above, since vanilla devs have focused on SKs being aggro machines/masters. Why would it be surprising they are first in aggro still? DPS is it's own form of aggro, we have all seen it. If SKs can as you say our DPS every other tank, why would you be surprised that they out aggro at such times?
Again, paladins can tank a lot of mobs, too, but it's rough. SK can do it in their sleep. I had to glyph up and chain cast valiant + protective and burns all of my instant cast heals (loh, etc). 1. SK are definitely easier to play well or you'd have SK on this board saying paladins are OP and everyone and their mother wouldn't be playing an SK for their box group 2. I never said SK can heal their group better than paladins (although they probably can if the epic 2.0 is up and it's a melee group, so 20% of the time with a 50% probability of melee vs caster). 3. Undead make up so few mobs that it's pretty hilarious how few there is, and an SK burning will out-DPS a warrior burning. There's one undead camp in LS and 1 raid with undead in LS. That's a very low percentage 3.5. SK can DPS while healing themselves while building aggro. Paladins have to take time to build aggro before we can worry about healing ourselves. We only get 1 spell that is aggro + heal (valiant). Otherwise we will be healing with our bursts or protective, which don't build any noticeable aggro. If paladins are so amazing and easier to play better than SK, why aren't there threads about SK saying paladins are OP? Like I said, the only people who say paladins are as powerful as SK are people who don't play a paladin. It's easy to say things are balanced when you're playing the (arguably) most OP class in the game. As I've said, paladins are in a pretty good spot. It's just that SK are so OP it makes us look like we're in a bad spot
For both of you - Which knight is to be preferred for the typical raid? Lets see if you will be honest, or lose all credibility
The epic click is definitely amazeballs. Again you argue yes a Pally can be as amazing as an SK or War, but it's harder to do. That is still not a class balance issue, that is a skill balance issue. Class balance is not having the tools in the box to do what you need to. If you have the tools, but it takes more effort to use them effectively that is about how high the bar is set. Maybe argue that. Even if Pallys were to get all their wishes, with a high bar to use them, nothing would change.
I see people asking to see parses. That reminds me, in my other thread I tried to post some parses for people to take a look at my stats and see whether they can find stuff for me to improve. But when I put Screenshots into my message, they vanished when I pressed "Post Reply". And when I tried to save my screenshots as files and add them, I only got an "
I think these kinds of traps are hilarious. I had a colleague try that on me ages ago. "You know, Dara, let's find out how much you know about football. Who was the best player on yesterday's game?" He is a football referee. These kinds of questions make it sound like the person asking is the sole arbiter of wisdom in the world, the only one that knows what they are talking about and if you dare to disagree, you are an ignorant moron. In the football game I mentioned in my example, 3 different former national team players (whose expertise I would personally rate above my colleague who is refereeing at amateur level) could not agree on an MVP. And I had not watched the game. So I told him "I do not give a damn." ;-) So while you did not address the question to me, my counter question to you would be "What makes you qualified to determine who on this board is credible or not?" And I do not mean that in a condescending way or trying to stir up crap. This is the internet. I am new enough on the board that I do not know whether the person posting is someone that has not logged into EQ in 22 years or the Dev that built EQ from the ground up and developed the classes, knows all the secrets. Look for all the "proof" that the earth is flat. I think that is why these discussions go nowhere. Because there is no real way of judging what people know what they are talking about, what their level of competence is. And even then, all the proof provided may be for naught because you cannot convince people that they are wrong, one way or another. See the flat earther example above. Having said that, since there was originally a topic behind this thread that I think has reached it's natural life, can I convince the people involved in the Pally vs. SK discussion above to start a new thread, call it "Pally vs. SK: Why you know nothing (Jon Snow) and I do" and move that particular part of the discussion there?
You still haven't answered our question as to what class you play and shown your parses of paladins topping dps parses on raid events of live mobs. I won't answer your question until you finally answer ours
lol oh dear that is quite an attempt at a dodge . good thing i am an expert at reading between the lines and can see that as an admission that paladins COMPLETELY outclass sk in the raid game (despite sk being "OP" as you claim). thanks for not outright lying, appreciate that friend. also i already mentioned (before the mod deleted posts) that i play many classes including paladin and sk. i cant figure out why you keep asking for dps parses of a claim that i never made, and is in fact irrelevant considering how paladins dominate raids versus sk...
Most raid guilds "need" 1-2 pallies for splash on certain events. The same guilds "want" sks to do all the heavy lifting in terms of tanks but will take what they can get from pallies. And pallies can do a pretty fine job at heavy lifting if played well, just like sk. It's just easier to assume that the sk is going to be better.
There isn't a one off answer to your question. It depends on what the raid needs. If the raid needs more DPS or tanks, then the SK is going to be more useful than a paladin. If the raid needs more heals or cures (ie splash), then the paladin will be more useful than the SK. Context is important Paladins can tank just fine, yes, but SK can tank better and have an easier time doing it
thats a cop out and the very reason i used the phrase "typical raid". everyone knows paladins do a better job of keeping a raid alive. its that simple. try and deny it LOL
and theres more to raids than just dps. extrapolate from there and..... yep paladins are clearly superior to sk in raids overall
I main changed to a Shadow Knight two expansion ago. The amount of group contribution a shadow knight gives is crazy. Their epic shouldn't have a group component, the total healing per swing should be capped (to like, 20k health) and the group component of their mana regen spells/AAs should be removed. If anything their epic and mana regen spells should deplete hp/mana of their group.
More dps in raids is always better. More healing outside of what your shaman and clerics are doing is almost entirely irrelevant.
