Question regarding Balance: SK Epic vs. Pally Epic

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Darakar, Dec 29, 2023.

  1. Darakar Lorekeeper

    Hello everybody,

    I have a quick question for those that were around when the epics came out, to see whether it was ever mentioned. Or as a potential balance idea for the Devs. Assuming they actually do read these forums. Which I am not convinced they do...

    The Pally is supposed to be more group friendly than the SK, providing buffs to the group, an Aura that helps the group, AAs that affect the group, Splashes, tons of things that provide group heals, etc.

    Can anybody tell me why the effect of the Pally epic only affects the Pally, while the SK Epic affects the whole group? I am also curious about the reasoning why the SK Epic lasts 2 minutes out of 5 (from what I was told) while the Pally Epic lasts only 1 minute out of 5.

    Did they ever address this?

    I enjoy the Pally and prefer to play it over the SK, but there are a few niggling things that really annoy me about it and this discrepancy is one of them. What do people think? Going for quick wins balance wise without changing everything, would it help Pallies if our Epic affected the whole group and lasted 2 mins out of 5, exactly like the SK epic? It is something I would like to see at least... And a concrete change that might bring Pallies into a better spot without requiring huge amounts of work. Opinions?
  2. Brickhaus Augur

    You're about 20 years too late for this argument.

    Let it go.

    P.S. When mom told you she didn't have a favorite ... she lied.
    FranktheBank, Vumad, Ozon and 3 others like this.
  3. p2aa Augur

    I'm wondering how long it's gonna take before this thread turns into the classic "SK OP, Pallies are very bad" fight. Though it needs first to have the handful of paladin whinners of these boards to start on it. By whinners, i mean people that portray a description of the paladin worst than it is in reality.
    WeCameWeConquered likes this.
  4. Darakar Lorekeeper

    I took a long break. ;-)
  5. Szilent Augur

    comes up over and over

    FranktheBank and Dre. like this.
  6. Fanra

    They do. They just don't comment much.

    The thread title has "Balance". Right there is the mistake. Epics are not balanced. Some classes got great epics, some did not. Some level 125 classes still use their epics. Most do not.

    While it might be nice to adjust some epics to make them better, I highly doubt that any dev wants to change some twenty year old items. Although, when it comes to TLP servers, they have bent backwards for them.
  7. Warpeace Augur

    Extend the Paladin epic an additional minute, stop looking at the SK one.
  8. Dre. Altoholic

    Too bad the "Warrior" dev for a good long run there was the "Back in my day we had to walk uphill into the wind both ways" type.
  9. Darakar Lorekeeper

    I think most of us agree that Pallies could use a leg up in some area's. While I have heard a few ingame comments from people that told me Pallies were incredibly overpowered (usually from people that did not play a Paladin), that does not seem to be the consensus.

    I also do not believe that Pallies are nearly as broken and useless as people on the Forum often make them out to be. I have not run into any problems. I have a 106 SK and 125 Pally and I prefer to play the Pally. I have not had problems keeping aggro offtanking on NoS raids, after finding rotations that work for me and I caught up a bit gear / AA wise. Surviveability seems fine. I have accidently grabbed aggro off other tanks despite not targeting their mob, etc. etc. DPS is mostly bad when tanking, but I knew that going in.

    All in all I am quite happy with the Pally, I just feel it has a couple of small annoyances that I would like to see solved. And the Epic is one of them. So I thought I would use it as a test balloon to see what people think and whether there is even a remote chance to see some balancing in 2024. Hence the title of this.

    I am not optimistic to see any changes, but I had the vague hope the reason why nothing came to pass in earlier discussions was that there were very split opinions on the topic in question and way too widespread balance requests. I think there is an outside chance of seeing something done if the change is relatively small, simple and not many people disagree with the logic behind this.

    It's possible I am naive on achieving anything on this topic, but felt it was worth a try. :) How very Paladin-y of me. ;-)
    alanus, Dre. and Szilent like this.
  10. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    Yea SK are OP every group im in its a sk thats tanks pretty sad. When just about everyone plays one you know there OP myself will never make one i dont wanna be like everyone else. Seems to me the SK and NEC epics are the most OP.
  11. fransisco Augur

    Better answer is cap all epic clicks at 100. If you make pally better, what about druids and enchanters? Theirs was worthless at lvl 80. You can't do one without causing a huge issue.

    They need to pull the bandaid off and just cap all epic effects many levels ago. Sucks for SKs, but they'll still be op without epic.
    alanus likes this.
  12. Cadira Augur

    I just think 2 hand stance buff should negate leech effects. And maaaaaaaaybe dual wield stance.

    You shouldn't tank better with a 2h equipped, fight me.
    Maedhros likes this.
  13. Nightops Augur


    I don't think many experienced paladins care about their epics or wish their epics could be revamped. I think many players would either like a new epic series (epics 3.0) or a level cap to limit their value (similar to the nerf which necro epics got a few years ago).

    Paladins in front of a good EQ player are very good at their roles.

    Long time paladins have lots of gripes in certain things that we just learn to play without.

    1) Take our Alliance spell line as an example. When alliances were implemented, the paladin line fulminated with ~1mil damage and a very weak group heal. While all other classes had a fulmination of ~2mil+ (except the 3 healer classes). Not to be forgotten, in order to fulminate the alliance, paladins often had to sacrifice melee dps output in order to cast enough spells or adjust our spell bar to accommodate for the slower refresh on some lines.

    Result - who cares now right?, alliances were hardly ever used by paladins in a raid setting because the value wasn't worth it.

    2) Similar situation with the Dicho spell line. Again, no dps. We got an insta cast stun with a long duration and a group heal. Dicho spells across all classes had a long refresh of 60seconds and a large mana cost, but they came with dps or useful benefits. Group heals or stuns are not good when you can not cast the spell again for 60seconds.

    Result - some paladins swear by keeping the dicho spell loaded, but they use it for the insta-cast ability to get agro or group heal while running / moving. IMO, we have other AAs which are better suited for this and thus not worth the spell slot.

    3) Focus AA tab for paladins has some really WTF were they thinking lines. Who wants to spend 100+ AA to focus an agro nuke line for an extra 3% damage when the base nuke is like 1k damage (now 2.5k)? Oh, and these spells were given to us for an alternate form of agro instead of stuns. But the focus line is for the dps and not for the agro.

    Results - its still a WTF issue. I don't know any paladin who really uses the crush line of spells anyway. But i'm sure if they could focus the agro amounts, some would use these crush lines of spells.

    4) Offensive Discs... ughh! We have Pureforge, Holyforge, and Blunted Blade. I'm sure not many paladin players can tell you the level of Holyforge disc. Or what the benefit of Blunted Blade actually is? I'm also willing to bet most of the developers don't know the answer to this either. Pureforge is our best disc and it came all the way back during the House of Thule expansion at level 90 (Holyforge was lvl 55 with Ruins of Kunark incase you didn't know). Blunted Blade disc is soo confusing that in-game descriptions vs what it actually does or doesn't do has never matched; see below.

    [40098/10553] Blunted Blade Rk. III
    Classes: PAL/99
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    4: Add Melee Proc: Blunted Strike III with 300% Rate Mod
    8: Increase Min Hit Damage by 90%
    Text: You adjust your weapon to strike with the flat of the blade.
    Book: Disciplines/OffensiveBook: Timer 20By adjusting your grip on your sword, you strike with the flat of the blade. This will lower the damage you do but add a chance to stun and magically damage your target.

    Proc: Blunted Strike III
    Resist: Magic -50
    1: Stun for 1s up to level 103
    2: Decrease Current HP by 4270

    Lucy spell info:
    8: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 90%

    Soo... does it increase our min hit damage by 90% or does it lower the damage we do and by how much? Does it work with all skills? Also... since this line was another 1 time only at level 99, the stun caps at level 103 (not to mention, 1 sec stuns are useless), and the damage is 4270. Someone can post a current parse, but the results will be underwhelming. Not to mention we have a tome which has conflicts if BB disc is running or if the tome's proc is up, then BB has issues.. Soo what's the point again?

    Result - Holyforge has been meh for 70 levels without noticeable parse difference with or without using despite a 5 minute duration. Blunted Blade has been questionable since it was introduced for multiple reasons. And while Pureforge is good, should it really be all by itself in todays game? Especially considering the duration was chopped in half several years ago because the duration was being focused with AAs and not intended.

    And yes, there are other areas which need attention, but these were just a few of the areas paladin development pulled the short straw. I know there are other threads and other areas lacking development. But other complaints and other threads.

    Oh.. and where is the consistency with undead mobs from one expansion to the next?
    Stephen51 likes this.
  14. Darakar Lorekeeper

    Nightops, that is exactly why I wrote:

    Why wish for every single broken thing to be fixed, if they are unable or unwilling to fix some small stuff?

    Well, if they do unexpectedly fix the Pally Epic after all, I suggest Druids and Chanters start a thread in their Forums to ask for a Fix for their Epic...
  15. Dre. Altoholic

    The right way to do this would have been to cap the healing effect at something reasonable in-era, say 200hp/hit dw or 300hp/hit 1h/2h. Can't really do that today considering 15+ years of content were designed around players having those abilities.
  16. Szilent Augur

    nah. You're looking at that backward. If content had been "designed around" Lich Sting, then SKs wouldn't feel overpowered. And literally nothing in game could be tanked by any other class.
    Beimeith, Wulfhere and Cadira like this.
  17. Flatchy Court Jester

    This reminds me of something my buddy told me over Christmas break. He works for the city at the sewage plant. He told me they took double time away from them on holidays and they only get time and a half now. Its because the town cops put in a grievance that they did not get double time. Its always been like that but they had to raise a ruckus. Pretty much knowing the outcome they chose to screw every other city employee. There's always somebody.
  18. Dre. Altoholic

    Admittedly it's been awhile since I've been in a beta, but "Can players kill it?" was the only criterion involved in tuning, when that even happened. So every click, buff, proc, dirty trick and the kitchen sink is included there.

    Now, if you're suggesting that they could make a change today, you'll find me more willing to discuss that than others.
  19. fransisco Augur

    Its never too late to cap it. It should happen today. Make all epic effects in era capped. Shm, bard, and sk (are there any others still in use?).
    Dre. likes this.
  20. Szilent Augur

    removed neck, loaded the chain castable heal:

    [Wed Jan 03 11:07:55 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (106010) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    aura on:
    [Wed Jan 03 11:11:45 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (110028) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    add spire(apex):
    [Wed Jan 03 11:14:13 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (111220) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    add epic:
    [Wed Jan 03 11:15:56 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (142153) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    add AotI:
    [Wed Jan 03 11:17:05 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (205676) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    remove epic:
    [Wed Jan 03 11:18:31 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (171182) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    remove spire(apex):
    [Wed Jan 03 11:20:56 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (144563) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    remove aura, down to just AotI:
    [Wed Jan 03 11:22:05 2024] You healed Trustee for 0 (140544) hit points by Soothing Touch Rk. III. (Critical)

    tl;dr - stacks.

    separately, I hope you're not implying Spire is instead used for dps. A hit bonus of 95 is not worthy of consideration. Although I suppose it's a fine thing if that usage had you, like, accidentally buffing your groups off the drop.

    The only other uses of spa120 outside the paladin class are debuffs. Rog Twisted Shank AA to use on enemies, Vehement Rage AA that war/ber/mnk can cast on themselves if they're silly, and some rare raid AEs.
    Wulfhere likes this.