New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

That's an interesting assumption.

Again, you can only use 1 imperator's at a time. Again, only one is useful. Imperator's charge is anything but useful. Imperator's Command is beneficial mainly to the tank in the group (for the hp/ac). I don't sit there casting it for 400 mana regen in mind, especially considering the assortment of ways casters can get back their mana. And in a raid setting, there are much more (and better) options than IC. Focused paragon, MGB paragon, Rallying call, rod, etc. Plus a cleric can always use yaulp if need be which would further lessen the benefit they receive from IC.

Our aura is 89ac. Who is that benefiting other than the tank? Nobody. Healers and dps aren't in need of 89 AC while a tank is alive. If we are dead and they are getting hit, the aura serves no purpose because...we're dead. Our "group" stuff is all based around ourselves. Nothing really benefits other people more than it benefits ourselves.

Let's not pretend like warriors are some awesome utility class. Just because we technically have "more" it doesn't make them any more useful than yours. Quality over quantity. Comparing SK and Warrior group utility is like comparing a Pinto and a Yugo. They both are terrible.

And how does a non useful ability not count? If it serves no benefit, why even mention it? Warriors also have a fear (up to level 85). Should we mention that? Oh that's right, no because it's friggin useless.

Are we going to forget then that SKs can VoT multiple tanks to give them aggro boosts? That's arguably better than anything a warrior can give out. Plus your 2.0 is arguably better than anything a warrior has to offer.

You are looking at it from what benefits you as the player, not what the class gets.

Just because you can only use one at a time doesn't make the other disappear. Just because one isn't useful to YOU doesn't make it disappear. Ever had an add hit a group mate? Well that aura just helped them. No I am not saying warriors are some awesome amazing be the end all of buff classes, and nor should they be. What I said is there are buffs there, that is a good way to work with the class. If you as a player don't want/like that idea, whatever, no skin off my back.

I would hope your group buffs would benefit your class more than the others in your group, that doesn't diminish what it does for others, that is the flavor of the buffs.

Actually I really like SK group utility, it pairs well with many other classes to be extremely useful in the right situations. I also like warrior utility, take the fear immune aa for group (another I forgot to mention), used at the right time can really help especially in the new fear raids. If you don't like ideas of powering up and/or getting more buffs for the warrior class, you have 2 options that will benefit you, suggest other stuff and don't knock those that suggest different that what you want, or stay quiet, as you are doing yourself no favors here as many of us are trying to help. It may not be the way you want help, but anything is better than asking for nerfs!

Imperator's Charge is not useful, period. It may as well not exist because it's never used. Just because it's there, it doesn't mean it's worth mentioning.

Ever have an add hit a group mate? Rarely, and they never die unless I'm dead which only happens if a pull goes a bit overboard. As long as I'm alive, my utility does not benefit anybody but me. That's not utility. They're glorified self buffs that just so happen to land on other people. However, giving people the ability to put HP back onto their hp bar is beneficial to everybody considering how any mob of significance does an AE. AC doesn't mitigate spell damage and as long as the tank is alive, the AC portion if nil. And if the tank is dead, they aren't getting that AC benefit because they aren't there to cast it.

Sure, 10k hp seems nice but as long as the person has enough hp reserve to live through the AE, the 10k hp doesn't really have a purpose. The real benefit is being able to put HP back on yourself after you absorb that AE. Something that SKs can provide.

How is charge useless considering it is the only spell haste that affects the heals most clerics (and shaman, druids alittle too) use outside celestial rapidity.

It does have an effective increase to heal throughput period.

Because it doesn't fit the narrative that warriors only have mitigation and we took that from them.

So can we write off all of the useless clerical buffs that Paladins get that are totally worthless since everyone either has a cleric merc to cast better buffs on them, or is in a raid type setting and getting real clerical buffs?

Does something like Brell's Stalwart Bulwark get tossed out the window too. It only provides 3,419 HPs as an RK III spell. Sure, 3k HP seems nice but as long as the person has enough HP reserve to live through the damage taken, the 3k HP doesn't really have a purpose.

See how silly this line of thought is?

I can agree they're fairly marginalized.

Not opposed to Brell's getting significant improvements to keep up with mob damage numbers.

No need for Brell's to get an improvement, it's fine where it's at. It's a very marginal amount of HP over the similar Beast/Ranger line of buffs, yet some classes still make sure to run with Brell's over them because they realize more hit points is a good thing for what they do. Not every ability needs to grant ridiculous amounts of hit points to be useful. Abilities that grant 10,000 hit points or 45,000 hit points are "extremely" useful in comparison, which is why they often have short durations.

That's very loyal of you to stick with paladin even while it was broken, although that was a very, very long time ago. I just stayed with my bers through several years of it being very broke, bout 3 years, and now it has gotten quite abit better. But, is it realistic to think i should wait 3 years to see if warriors get re-balanced. In 1999-2000, just getting from level 48-50 took me forever. Now i can buy a heroic of any class, put it on auto follow, and in 2 weeks have it 105/max AA with little effort. I would really like to stay with warrior, but i fully believe that with warrior stances plus self healing, knights tank better, and I don't really choose to play a inferior class for 3 years while they rebalance it. Maybe its just a personal choice thing, but I dont think that because someone decided to stay with paladins many years ago and they were broken, that means at year 17 of the game they had to break warriors to get even.

The key thing to understand is, a few years back before stances warriors were doing quite abit worse then knights, and they went through many possibilites for how to get warriors up to knights, and that was how warrior stances came about. then in the 2 years since stances, most upgrades have been small due to warriors already having stances. So now after 4-5 years, they just take all that build up, and copy/paste it into knights. If people weren't upset about that, I'd be more surprised then I am about people who are upset by it.

Paladins were terrible and rather boring outside of raids and partially inside of raids up until underfoot and then hot. That's how things go. It has had its ebbs and flows. Since 99 I've enjoyed no other class the way I have a paladin despite the class deficiencies. If you are willing to jump ship to the hot new item you haven't found your Everquest class. Till the game sunsets I'll play a paladin it isn't about how powerful the class is but rather if I enjoy playing it. The challenges over the years have made it that much more interesting.

I made an SK during SOD to play with pre nerf MR. Sometimes you just gotta have fun bro. (UF BP was pretty lol too)

Lol back then sk utility mattered and the extra dps from a tank standpoint was cool compared to war paladin. Pals were relegated to undead only with limited undead content

Yeh Watching MR proc everytime an Instant dot refreshed kind of got me, then UF BP and i was like haha this is so awesome. Although I remember when they added DP and IJ, I finally started playing my paladin again wasnt quite as cool as pewpew MR proccing, but whatever.

If you were having so much fun during hot, why did you feel it necessary to call for warrior nerfs?

This object may seem familiar to you:


Also define hypocrisy: whining about someone supposedly crusading to nerf your class x years ago in a thread where you repeatedly call to nerf that person's class......

This thread's gone on a long time I'll say and I don't think it's gotten anywhere. But as a person that plays a warrior because well I like playing a warrior, I like my paladin but my warrior is the one I enjoy the most. In any case from what I've found any group I get into is just happy to have a tank, I've never had anyone say we need a knight. It's always, "yay a tank!." Hell a lot of groups I get in seem to hold warriors to almost higher value.

In any case I'm fine with knights having stances, really I am. As a warrior there are certain things I'd like as a warrior. I'd like a bit more dps, I know I know, I didn't sign up to dps! I signed up to tank! But as a group warrior there's times where I want to do something myself, old merc quest, molo an HA for progression, camp a power source, stuff like that. And again I know, find a guild! I'm not saying I need to do high dps but if I could do some more dps, I'd be good with that. If warrior's could be the highest melee dps but less dps than a knights total dps as if melee and spells I'd be happy.

I'd just wish they upgraded some of our older disc, the tds/cotf/rof/voa whatever disc that were discontinued because, well they never said. I'd like the same for all classes. Hell cotf/tbm would of been a great time to continue all those missing spell/disc lines. It can't be hard to plug some numbers into a spreadsheet or something and find a name for a disc/spell can it? I dunno...

Besides that still things I'd like is our rune disc to do a worthwhile amount of runes, the proc rate to be better. Honestly when I run that disc I don't notice a difference at all. I'd like our stun disc to work to lvl 108 mobs so I can cycle last stand, rune disc, stun disc, ac disc or use them for when I want/need them.

I'd like a way to purify myself like knights/melee's have. I hate having to rely on a cruddy epic click and a familiar at best and hope I don't get charmed/mezzed. I'm not asking for something better or even as good as knights. I'd just like to have it, even on some 30 minute timer. I'd like some long-distance zero/one damage bellow/shout agro for pulling/hitting wonders/mobs that are out of taunt range.

Otherwise since knights have had their stances I've never got in a group that kicked me because I'm a warrior. Hell most groups when they get any tank are happier than all get up. I like how the warrior plays so you know I'm going to play the class I like cause you know I like it. Yeah there's some things I wish/would like but no class is perfect I suppose.

In any case, after some thought and playing in-game no-ones kicked me from a group/told me I suck for playing a warrior. I can still tank everything I could before knights got stances. So perhaps the sky didn't fall afterall. And Norrath turns I guess.

We'll see what our next monthly patch brings, I'm more curious what class is next for dot changes, see if wizards are next for the nerf bat that the devs so love to swing. O well you'd think instead of us fighting each other and trying to get each other nerfed or something, I mean there seems enough of that we pay for. I wonder if people pay people to key their car or take fuel from it or break a window. I'm beginning to realize all eq players are masochist.

My 2 copper and some ramblings.

I bet you would. You can be sad.

I happen to agree with him though, a warrior should have the highest melee dps, and we should be the highest overall dps when we use spells. That is a trade off we made when we picked the class.

Brutal. Just brutal.