New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

thats a terrible comment as u cant compare per spell/aa/skill bases as all classes are diffrent. you have to if u wanna trade, trade whole package as its the total product that matters not pick the best peices and take them out of context

Nah... From the paladin stand point, I think you have this wrong.

I think the better comparison would be mages getting wizard nukes.

The wizard being the better class prior and with more dps while the mage is the class with the -utility-, but when played well, especially after the change, can dps on par with the wizard and the utility the mage has will be able to have their pet tank, dps, stun, and range dps at anytime at ease.

You obviously don't pay attention to what your guild paladins do or any that you may have grouped with.

sighhhh....

It doesn't work that way.... Your like the grandma who is pin'ing polaroids to her wall and claiming she's on facebook.

This is why we have so many pages on this thread.
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What I love from your posts and from other warriors.... I hear a lot of don't give knights DP and KS because it makes them a better raid tank and puts them on a level similar to a warrior (some think better) and with the knight utility, it makes them overpowered. Then you and others constantly rebuff their claim by bringing up the knights utility in group game. If you don't see the disconnect, I underlined it for you.

Do to the way healing and mitigation scale they are always going to have a hard time balancing Warrior V Knight, unless they use something that scales equally to achieve that balance to begin with. And let's be honest DP was a band aid for the real warrior problem and this giving Knights DP is also a half band aid fix.

I'm not sure what you mean here?

My comment was ment as joke because the paladin Dichotomic is viewed as worthless by the vast majority of paladins and not even worth putting on our spell bar because of the high mana cost & 1 min reuse timer, and better current individual spells; not to mention the time during game which you need a group heal or stun usually do not coincide with each other and if a paladin needs a stun or group heal, the occurrence is much faster then 1 min.

if it was a joke thats fine then. its hard to tell in this thread with ppl saying of the charts dumb stuff

That is 100% correct.

Let me be 100% clear: I'm not opposed to knights getting a tuned version of DP.

But... At some point you knights need to cut the crap and realize this ability grant ---unlike when warriors got stances--- had little thought and no tuning behind it. I have a problem with them getting carbon copies of warrior stances and innate 5% mitigation, all while having to give up nothing. Warriors didn't get nearly the upgrade from stances that knights did, in fact, our mitigation during LS was heavily nerfed while knights getting stances essentially made mantle a shorter duration LS (remember 20 pages ago when knights were arguing that LS broke the game?)

If it were up to me.... no innate mitigation boost, no 2H stance, DP in the 10-15% range. Better yet, heavily nerf DP for both wars and knights and adjust mob DPS accordingly since it should have never been 30% in the first place, given that boosting every mob in the game for DP is pretty bad game design.

Thing is, I don't think devs will adjust these stances, and even if they do, I don't think they'll be nerfed to point where they would've been in the first place had devs put some thoughts into the original implementation.

Just outta curiosity, what is/was ISS and Phalanx? I haven't commented on this because I don't remember. Phalanx of one? what was the SPA for this?
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Sounds like a familiar responce the devs gave to the slay undead ability throughout the years until recently.
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Not sure where I read it, but someone above (in a different post) was saying something to the effect about warrior dps was already behind knights. Personally, I think war should be behind knights. If an SK gets 75% of a war dps and 25% of a necro dps... SK should be more then 100% of a war dps by a substantial amount. Same goes for a paladin but a lesser extent then SKs.

Yeah I know.
I had deleted the 'haha' which I had originally put in my post.

I was joking because paladins don't even mem their dichotomic, but it sounded like the warrior wanted the knights to know warriors are only able to us the war dichotomic only 20% of the time due to reuse timers.

Well having a useful Dichotomic in the first place does help.

yeah and u have plenty of other spells /abilitys that makes up the diffrence. every class has spells/skills that are old /outdated/useless. it comes and goes be it warrior, be it paladin, be it shadowknight ect . its why u cant look at one spell/skill when you make and argument on balance

did they drop the ball on your dico spell yeah sure. does it make a big diffrence on your over all class not really

Lol oh god, Reppy is your feelers hurt from this "nerf"(Boost) too?

For all your talking regarding what I said, we STILL USE Warriors for MTs.

So it really doesn't matter if I'm a member, officer or leader, when we use Warriors as MT's we use Warrior's as MT, you don't need to be an "officer" to see it..So put your shiny badge down, no one cares

Again u shouldent speak of things u know nothing about . just cuz u can type dumb stuff dosent mean u should. x-tra much so when u say things you have no clue about.

as far as your trolling goes it has no effect on me

ps: maybe you should attend more raids so u whould be better informed. beeing 68% 30 day isent exactly steller when we only raid twice a week

Repthor dropping bombs look out.

68% Oh gee golly ! Noooooooo!!!

Grasping at straws are we?!

The old adage of better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. You need to learn how paladin spells work before commenting on them.

Force of Ardency (timer 3) 30 second recast (stun/aggro/hot recoil proc)

Ardent Force (timer 4) 12 second recast (stun/aggro)

Crush of the Darkened Sea (timer 5) 12 second recast (nuke/aggro)
Force of the Darkened Sea (timer 5) 12 second recast (stun/aggro)

Lesson of Grief (timer 6) 24 second recast (nuke/aggro/stun)
Crush of Povar (timer 6) 24 second recast (nuke/aggro)

Dichotomic Force (no timer) 60 second recast (no duration stun)
Impose for Honor (no timer) 1.5 second recast (hate over time, small vie)

Valiant Deflection (timer 17) 6 second recast (hott heal and aggro)

Also is a (I think they lowered it from 3.0 to 1.5 recently?) global recast on ALL spells in the game. Limits how fast you can cycle things, which has more to do with aggro here.

Those are our aggro/stun spells, for your reference. Stuns last a MAXIMUM of 4 seconds on NPCs. So regardless if it says 6 or 10, it is a 4 second stun max (can be shorter depending on NPC). Grief is almost never used because it has a long cast time (and damage and knockback which can cause their own issues), plus, crush of povar is a good nuke/aggro. So we usually use that if we can mem it.

Whether crushes or stuns is used is dependent on 1) if you are able to damage in that situation, obviously want stuns for aggro on mez or going to be mezzed stuff, 2) if something is stunnable or not. Crushes were created to replace stuns on non-stunnable mobs.

Impose is used by few paladins because 1) in most situations in groups the hate takes too long to ramp up, you get nothing on resist, it takes up a spell slot needed on something more important, the vie is meaningless on anything that matters due to stacking and its size, and possibly more important than even the spell slot limitation, you can cycle through all your other stuff for aggro within around 9 seconds at which point you've accrued enough aggro that it doesn't matter anyway, 2) in raids you definitely need the spell slot, the vie is worthless, and you're better off chaining other things for continuous aggro.

Basically, valiant deflection able to cast every 6 seconds plus the addition of FoD aa meant you do not have time in an aggro cast cycle to put in impose before you're ready to restart, making it worthless.Impose also has a long cast time. Heck, at 0.5 seconds stuns get constantly interrupted when you try and cast, much less something with more than double the cast time.

Dicho is used by few paladins because of the 60 second timer. You're better off memming another aggro spell or heal spell.

Expecting a paladin to waste 6 of 12 spell slots on all those spells is moronic. It is a sign of a bad paladin that isn't using their other tools properly. And its also stupid to believe we should have to cycle 5 or 6 spells to keep aggro (and add in DP/FoD as well). Do warriors spam 6 or 7 abilities on recast timers to keep aggro? Nope.

Personally, I use 3 stuns/crushes, valiant, and FoD to maintain aggro. 5 abilities totally 28-29 casts per MINUTE. Do you have to spam that much?

I'm off topic a bit, as I got into aggro, maybe because that is the paladin's main cross to carry right now, our awful aggro compared to what dps is putting out.

So for stuns, assuming you perfectly timed it (note that NPC swing times keep counting down while stunned, so if you stun for 4 seconds then cast again the npc swings in between negating the majority of your "stun mitigation" gains, particularly on a slowed mob. The key for stun locking is overlap, meaning to be reasonable you overlap in 3 second intervals. So you could feasibly mem the 4 true stuns and keep a mob stunned for approximately 70% of the time assuming no resists, and mitigate at least 50% of the mob's dps output. Assuming it is stunnable.

So not on "raid bosses". Not on group named. Not on anything whatsoever difficult. And if there are 2 mobs or more then it is only one ONE of them and the others blast you at full speed.

So yes, paladins are massively overpowered against irrelevant regular trash mobs coming in singles. Yep. Been saying that for 12 years or so. Of course, that isn't what anyone cares about except some warriors or sks at times with a bug up their butt who need to make up a strawman to attack, since every other melee can pretty much tank the same situation. That is a limitation of the stun system in eq. Why devs have thought about trying to change it to add partial stun mitigation for years but never have.

I'm off by a whole 2 seconds. Instead of locking mobs 10 seconds out of 12, you're down to 8 seconds out of 12. A mere 66% of the time a paladin isn't getting hit

Global recasts are 1.5 seconds. I'm well aware of this seeing how I play a necro and sham. If even with that recast, you can get a spell in between your force of X and <insert other stun here>. Most likely Ardent Force (see, they're both force spells!)

Even if it wears off on mobs quicker, a paladin is avoiding all damage in spans of 2-4 seconds per tick. Considering you have the same exact base mitigation as us now, halfing the amount of time getting hit is a huge advantage.

The average mob hit round is something like 2 seconds unslowed I believe. A mob stunned for ~4 seconds is avoiding upwards of 2 whole hit rounds out of every 3. Plus the ones you don't avoid fully, you have repel mitigating 90% of the hit after a 30% DI reduction.

Just rough numbers, a mob hitting for 15k max with a DB of 5,000 (pretty substantial) and a DI of 500. Take those numbers insert them right into a nice equation and you're left with 10,000 DI damage with a 20 roll. 10,0000 x .65 (your prof + 5% innate) = 6,500 + 5,000 = 11,500 before Repel. After repel and you're taking 1,500 damage. It mitigates about 10,000 which is enough damage to mitigate 3 hits of max damage. The average group mob lands about 50-60% of its hits. You're talking about taking around 2,000-3,000 damage per hit round at the max and you're only getting hit at a ratio of anywhere from 1:0.5-1:0.75 of a warrior while taking half the damage a warrior is.

Let's not forget you can also heal yourself at will!

How is this balanced at all?????

Ok, so names can't be stunned. But when you have abilities like self healing that's on the same level (or better) than 2 of the 3 main healers, who gives a darn? You also have quicker refresh/higher mitigation abilities to take less damage on top of having the same base mitigation as a warrior.

If you get multiples, one is blasting you at full speed? Ok, well, if a warrior gets adds, BOTH are blasting us at full speed. What's the difference? Oh yeah, you're still able to lock down a mob at will - without another person - for 25-66% of the time. (I'm being generous on the stun wear off time).

We have more health. Big deal. I've never seen a named mob round a tank in the group game since coming back during VoA. The key is to replenish the hp you have. Having more serves me no good if I'm just bleeding out. It's delaying the inevitable. It's not the case for knights.

We designate 1 healer in the group at all times. A knight can successfully use himself to heal and have a 2nd healer in the group if he so chooses. This allows the same group set up of tank/healer/dps/dps/dps/utility or dps but you get the benefit of a whole 2nd healer without taking up another group slot. If a warrior wants that the group becomes tank/healer/healer/dps/dps/dps. We lose dps already because warriors are less dps than knights (especially considering TBM is undead heavy) but in order to keep up with the same healing, we need to lose a whole other dps class in the group make-up.

Again, how is that balanced? Better yet, how is that not an advantage?

As for that "Are you spamming that much" comment? No, it's physically impossible for a warrior to spam that much because our refresh timers a complete joke, as I've stated time and time again. If I could, I most certainly would. If you don't believe me, go look at our "zomg OP awesome sauce" abilities.

Any group with mobs dying in the 10-15 second range, it's virtually impossible for a warrior to consistently hold aggro on mobs because our fastest refresh is 15 seconds and it's only 14k ish aggro after a hate mod. We also have to consider hate override so before we use that, we need to use a clicky (I use the rot stick). Any dps class blows through 14k hate in less than 5 seconds. We need to stack aggro, but we don't have enough fast reuse instant hate stuff in our arsenal. Everything after insult is 30+ seconds. I mean you want to talk about awful fast-paced aggro, well, enter into the world of the warrior.

Sure, we can dump a metric f-ton on a single mob, but good luck when it's mobs coming in very quickly back-to-back-to-back. Paladins and SKs just completely blow us out of the water.

Oh, and let's not forget about our broken pet who steals aggro and dies instantly. That was our claim to fame in aggro production and it's virtually diminished because of sheer stupidity.