New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

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Deceitful Deflection

Description
1: Increase Hate by 2819
2: Decrease Hitpoints by 4120
3: Resource Tap (850)


AE Range:30
Increase Hate by 2819
Recast Time:6

Deceitful is the only one we have that wakes mezzed mobs.

I don't see the problem with the best Mitigating tank in the game being reliant on other classes to be the best at their job in raids.

Thanks for the information on what awakes or not mezzed mobs.
As I repeat it, I'm perfectly fine that SK have all these tools, and that they can beat me on AE aggro without problem.
Regarding AE aggro, imo it should be SK > War > Pal, and I think this rule is respected for AE aggro atm.

No I just didn't realize you were talking about self only compared to self plus vie which everyone can have at all times now that we have mercs.

Also upon re reading some of your statements I guess I look at it as LS = 3 mintues, Un/Holy+ mantle is 3 minutes, so if you take out LS you have to take out those as well to give a real comparison before DP, and you have to take out Mantle + carapce (1 min + 2 min) after DP to give a real comparison. Then throw the rest of what each of us have in comparison to see where we would stand.

Yeah, but I honestly think that war and pally need some better ae agro, ie faster because of how fast the group game can be. In raids we are fine where we are, all 3 classes.

I also hope that they fix warrior pet or give them something else in its place to help with single target agro,

It's hard to say. Everything was tuned around it, which arguably is bad.

Did it lead to our other abilities being underpowered/ignored? I can't say, but I'm leaning towards yes so I would agree that the introduction to LS began a long slow tumultuous roll down to balancing dilemma lane.

I never agreed with DP, for the record. I'm not sure how many times I can say this BUT I'll say it again so hopefully people will realize what side of the fence I'm on.

Essentially, warriors were one hit wonders doing LS rotations, which is a stupid mechanic. It forced guilds to have X amount of warriors on at all time. Ideally you wanted the minimum to rotate + 2 so that's about 5 warriors.

imagine if dps classes didn't need others........WOW (just pictured it) that would be awesome! My zerker would be AfreakinMazing all the time!

It would be better of you to be a man and admit your comparison was extremely flawed but it seems you'd rather double down on embarrassment. Saying 'post Warrior's best abilities, look at how much better knights best abilities are!' is completely pointless at best, but more accurately, dishonest.

Let's compare this correctly:
Last Stand @ 45% (plus Phalanx for a time @ 55%) for 3 mins
vs
Unholy Guardian @ 36% for 2 mins, Mantle @ 35% (and capped in total) for 1 min

Now there's Carapace @ 20% for 2 mins (and capped in total), but I guess we'll just forget all about NTTB, right?

Your claim is proven false. Repeating your absurdity won't make it true.

Sadly this reminds me of SK epic. Both classes have been held back by something and designed around it.

I've said it in other places and will say it again - I don't believe SKs have been held back by their epic one bit. For one, it was always only conjecture by the community to understand why SK melee was getting screwed over and two, it could always be blocked, capped or nerfed to accommodate changes. The epic is too simple to work around to be a reason for anything.

Based on a parse from a raid last night, it would have mitigated around 9% additional damage. That's pretty significant.

How did I come up with that?

I divided the total damage I took in by 90. Mulitplied by 100. That number equals that damage I would have taken without SB, roughly.
I totaled up the damage by the total number of Repels I would have been able to cast in that time period (16) and subtracted it to the total damage I would have taken in.
Divided that number by the total damage before Repel, multiplied by 100 for 9.1.

Another way of doing it is:
Add the total damage up for the total Repels casted (16)
Subtract that by the damage I took.
Divide that number by the damage I took.
I get 9.1%

Is this a perfect way of doing it? No, but it's fairly straight forward and gives a ballpark estimate of how effective Repel really is. If a warrior had this ability, they'd get somewhere around 15-19% mitigation with SB/Repel combo running all the time. I'd say that's pretty darn significant.

You realize NTTB is worse than Shining, right? The only time it's usable is during LS and 99% of the time, we don't need anything additional under LS. I guess we'll just ignore that fact. You can go on your merry way.

My argument is strictly outside of LS and Guardian. Those are primary mitigation abilities, except for knights it's now DP and Mantle, I guess. So I assume the knight order of mitigation would go Mantle/DP > Guardian/SB (or a knight vie) > Carapace/DP.

Regardless, when comparing warrior abilities to knight abilities, mantle and carapace are far superior to anything we have. It's just pure numbers. 35% and 20% are > 15%. The only positive (I guess) is that we have the ability to stack more at certain time periods, but those abilities aren't necessarily mitigation abilities. They are AC/HP, not percent-based mitigation.

Yes, LS does last 3 minutes, but that's not the point of the statement. My statement is beyond LS. LS equal mitigation has been around for over a decade so let's ignore it. What I'm saying is that warrior abilities have stagnated way too much and knight abilities, especially now with DP, have strengthened so much that they walk circles around us.

What I'm trying to say is simple: Warrior secondary abilities need a boost. Plain and simple. Why are knights seeing this as an attack against their abilities? I guess they have some sort of insecurity problem. If they got strong secondary abilities, good for them. But I'm not going to sit here and act like warrior abilities outside of LS are fine and dandy, because they aren't. A vast majority are underpowered and need retooling.

It would be different for a warrior vs a knight as you don't have vie discs, there are a lot more variables to add in there as well, as well as the fact that we take more damage, thus making it lower. also though probably not significant you would have to take out any insults you did.

I think we all agree, and may of us have been saying that warrior secondary abilities need boosts/reconfiguring.

The only issue I have with what you are saying is the way you are saying it. You are trying to compare everything in the knight arsenal to everything in the warrior sans LS, but LS is the most important tanking ability in the game. You are also intentionally excluding the fact that most our stuff doesn't stack with what others can give when the game is built upon classes abilities stacking with each other.

When you take those 2 aspects into account, that completely changes the landscape of knight tanking, and to leave them out is to be dishonest at best.

Considering you last played EQ when warriors had 60% LS via Phalanx and knight guardian disc didn't exist, I don't know how valid your view is.

Ever since knights got guardian, I can't recall my guild calling an event when we had enough tanks but not enough of those tanks were wars (for survival purposes.)

What are you even talking about?

But we were talking about warriors getting it? If warriors got it, it would give us an additional 7-9% mitigation I can safely argue.

Conveniently I have a parse of both a knight and warrior tanking the same mob, on the same night. Unfortunately the knight tanked for a longer time period. But let's do the math!

The knight tanked for roughly 6.8 minutes compared to the warrior tanking for 4.2 minutes (I'd say it's quite impressive the average hit is only 1.5k damage more for the paladin while tanking for over 2 minutes longer.)

So in 6.75 minutes you can cast repel about 4 times a minute so that's 27 times. 27 * 35595 is 961065 total damage absorbed. In the end, Repel gave the paladin around 7% mitigation.

I'd say that 7% mitigation is still very significant bonus over the course of a fight

Untrue, I stated multiple times that the advantages in a warrior's favor is his stacking and AC/HP mitigation. I also said that the warrior has more abilities total, but the longevity of these abilities barely equals the total time a knight's abilities will run for and the simple fact that we need to stack multiple abilities to just equal the mitigation totals.

That's how the devs decided to design mitigation I guess. We have more numerous, short duration abilities that have better stacking potential while knights have more potent abilities, but far less with stacking issues. Both tanks will see the greatest tanking periods from 0-5 minutes. After that both knights and warriors will be heavily relying on DP + 3rd party vie or self vie (Do knights have an SB-like vie?). What separates the warriors in this time is the AC/HP bonuses. What separates the knights in this time is combat self-healing. I don't know which one is more effective. I'd like to say AC/HP in raids and healing for groups.

I didn't compare all the knights abilities. I compared Mantle/Carapace with our Bravery's. Nothing more, nothing less. Our 2nd best stuff vs your 2nd best stuff (turned 1st best with DP, however).

In the end, knights and warriors are very very very close. See above

The issue all along was that shields were incompatible with Warrior combat design. It would have made much more sense to let shields remain a "Knight thing" and balance war/knight defense via other methods. Putting effort into making shields viable for Warriors was on par with making melee damage viable for Wizards.

The vocal minority was absorbed entirely around how they could make shields useful, rather than whether they should. And so we received the multiple elaborate and broken systems required to shoehorn shields into the Warrior toolset. Time and time again this approach has been proven sorely mistaken.

The agro is of lesser relevance since the transition to activated agro abilities. I don't know where you keep getting the idea that 1H for Warriors is some kind of fantastic DPS but it seems to be anomalous.

Our 1h DPS is fine. Our 2h DPS is fine. DW and activated are the areas that need boosting. DW is already a middleground in mitigation/DPS, which is exactly why it sucks - the concept itself is flawed. I realize you want SK DPS improved but sabotaging internal Warrior balance is not the way to do it, nor do I think it is in anyone's best interest to further distance 2H from 1H DPS.

Hey, I completely agree that Warriors could use some secondary abilities but as Sojero and I have stated, the way you're trying to make your case isn't right. The moment you say 'sans LS' you have to say 'sans Guardian & Mantle' because that is where those abilities compare. Mantle & Guardian weren't knight secondary abilities but their first two that both had to be used to run as long as Last Stand (assuming you didn't exceed the damage cap on Mantle earlier).

Stacking certainly matters - the game is built around it. I was pretty sure too that NTTB was powerful outside of LS back then but I'm going on second hand info there. As for today, knights still aren't walking circles around Warriors with DP - you are still ignoring the run times & damage caps. Mantle and Carapace combine for 3 minutes, damage pending, and Guardian doesn't stack with DP. You can argue its too close and many knights agree - how much is 'too close' is up for debate. But I don't think anyone here is saying you couldn't use some improvements on secondary mitigation abilities.

Put your math out there, id be vary curious to see how you came up to that 7%, and I mean actual #'s ie what was his total damage taken, and then how did you extrapolate 7% from that

Yes but you have to do Holy/unholy+ mantle to reach the time limit of LS, thus you need to take both of those out from before DP. Then you need to take out carapace+ mantle for after to reach the same time limit. Then your comparison for after is only carapace before, and Un/holy after.