More wizard nerfs? Really?

Yes! From a macro perspective it always will be. Obviously it's awesome for whichever class is currently on the beneficial side of the pendulum swing. For DPS players, it feels good to know you're kicking and taking names better than anyone else on a consistent basis.

This whole "balance" thing is really just pipe dream. Continuing with the pendulum metaphor, it's always going to swing in favor of one class or another. As players we roll with the punches and adapt as needed. Sometimes things get brutally nerfed in ways that are unfair or detrimental to the game. Other times they get buffed with the same effect. The only thing we can hope for is that our tears don't cause a rise in the Ocean of Tears that floods Antonica and Faydwer and kills us all.

One thing I would like to point out is that wizards don't just bring dps to groups and raids. They also have one of the better ADPS abilities in the entire game even after the manaburn nerf something wizards seem to conveniently forget when discussing class balance.

On raids in particular there really is no reason to bring any other caster dps, and that's just factoring in wizard self dps. When you add manaburn to the discussion too it's not even a question of which caster dps is superior.

Now I understand that maybe wizards didn't ask to be given a strong ADPS ability, but you guys currently have it. The wizards that keep saying they have no utility whatsoever when in fact you still have one of the best ADPS abilities in game is a bit laughable.

Mana burn was never an adps ability b4 the current iteration. I believe it was the result of trying to get wizards to boost each other as there were numerous attempts at this, but I truly don't know.

I don't think that them giving us random unasked for adps changes the fact that wizards were always pure dps and the original burst dps class (and whoever said mages were sustained dps since 99 was wrong, nukers were burst, melee were sustained, necros were necros). Berzerkers had epic and cry, they still have been pure burst dps since their creation (much to the annoyance of rogues and wizards playing then).

The bottom line of all of this (thread) is that this nerf is kicking wizards when they are significantly down in relation to their melee counterparts, and that stinks.

Wizards, nor casters in general, are behind their melee counterparts. TBM just is very melee-oriented in design with a bunch of adds for AEing to pad melee parses. Not to mention lame mechanics like Grannus' spell immunity or Anashti's corruption/disease cure which screws over Necros.

The only caster that can really make a case for being behind would be Mages, since Enchanters can now pretty much match or beat them at any duration making Mages tied for or the weakest caster.

Everything else is really about raid design, by all means push for less AE-friendly events next expansion. TBM was/is probably too AE heavy design wise, not so much the number of events that have adds but that the number of adds creates several periods of 10-60sec burst that make up significant portions of overall nightly damage on a 4000-6000sec combined.

Yeh Shaman and Bards the worst classes at DPS in current EQ. I am trying to think of 2 classes that are worse off, and can't.

Its sort of Sad.

The only reason Enchanters are underrated is because there are so many people that have absolutely no idea how to maximize DPS that play them. The ones that do, Aren't telling the tardmuffins how.

IDK though I was guilded with a cleric that liked to parse pad on events with adds, Can't beat a cleric showing up on the combined, even funnier when they wreck people that they shouldn't have.

check this out....

Hey Enchanters!

Hit your burn abilities, you know the ones you never bother with. Calculated Insanity, ITC (if you even know what that stands for), IoG, 3rd Spire, and Chromatic Haze. Then cast your Dicho -> Mindsunder. Then cast your 3 dots, and go back to chaining the 3 Mind nukes until the dots wear off. If you want to really be a show off switch out Twincast aura for Augmenting right before you hit ITC, and pop a Glyph of Destruction II (formerly Cataclysm) for good measure.

Now Wizards can complain that they're losing to chanters.

Incoming Ocean of Tears

There shouldn't be "Raid balance .vs Group balance". Aside from the rather obvious "two wrongs don't make a right" angle, it also presumes some level of equality between grouping and raiding.

Truth is, and it's a truth people hate to admit, is that no one fricking cares about balance in groups. The biggest factor (aside from having a regular group of friends to group with) in getting a group invite is being available when someone's looking for more. (And to be fair, even the importance of raid balance is way overstated in forumland. But then again, I've never seen someone post a group parse in guild chat, so...)

Wasn't always that way. Used to be that special skills: tank, healer, CC, slower, puller were in much higher demand than DPS. And, contrary to your idea of balance, those classes were normally the most desired in raids as well.

But let's for a moment pretend that group balance is a thing. Can you quantify the disparity between mages and wizards? I mean in overall group desirability, not the overly simplistic "mages can be tanks and dps" tripe. Are wizards struggling to find groups? Do they suffer some undue hardship when it comes to leveling-up, earning their AAs, or finishing progression?

If so, why is that not an issue anyone seems to want fixed? Why is it never mentioned except in the context of justifying wizard raid superiority? Would wizards be content if root were to be improved to a level that made a tank unnecessary?

I think it's because this supposed imbalance just doesn't matter to anyone. Wizards would probably actively campaign against fixing that "problem" in any way other than more DPS. I'm sure wizards are very happy to give up something that doesn't really have any impact on them, and they don't even want anyway, to help make their case for more of the one thing that everyone wants.

There's no reason to think that a group utility imbalance (even assuming that's an important thing) can only be (much less best be) fixed through raid DPS. It's a specious argument at best, if not outright sophistry. Could say the same about the false dilemma you're trying to create of mages giving up our pet.

And you can say we've always been 2nd-tier DPS, and try to call it proof that that's all we should be. Maybe I say it means we're long overdue for our turn at the top of the totem pole.

It's all fun and games when we try to get mages nerfed but I box an enc and this is just wrong. I'm here to confirm that this post above is 100% lies.

I'm not sure anyone really implied that increasing raid DPS is a way to fix group imbalance. It's just that for wizards, a magic user that specializes in evocation and masters of magical damage, our class defining ability revolves 100% around nuking things. So, of course that's where our focus usually ends up.

Also, just because there's an imbalance doesn't mean everyone should be raised up to the highest level. This is where I don't think nerfs are a bad thing. If it turned out that mage pets could tank 100% of group content without a healer and mages still have the ability to do very good dps. Then I'd say hey maybe that's a little too OP. Let's bring it down some. Wizards definitely wouldn't want a super OP root that replaced a tank because that would be terrible for the game. This is also why I don't have a huge problem with wizards having the ability, with a cleric merc, to kill a handful of current content named. Regardless of what anyone thinks it's not that easy and you evac and die plenty doing it. It's something to do for fun more than actual benefit. It's way easier just get 1 other person to help you out.

pfft I didnt even mention the detailed stuff, thats just basic burn info. and even with it 90% of Enchanters will barely crack 100k cause clicking buttons and casting non-stop is hard for some reason. doesn't mean the class can't put up some big numbers.

The greatest thing to ever happen to some classes is the plethora of bad players that never look at what their abilities do.

Ha you're right. I honestly did consider focusing on enc for dps and only using my wizard for named. Although, the one drawback I ran into was the mana usage. I went all +hagi on my enc and I seemed to run out pretty quickly using those mind nukes but I didn't really try to tweak things.

First off you should play a Wizard if you don't believe that group content is harder. I wouldn't say wizards struggle to find a group anymore then any other class other then maybe a SK if a group has a tank already. Undue hardship? I would again say no we don't have any special needs when it come to earning EXP simular to how people use to say larger classes earned EXP slower. Earning AAs same deal. Finishing progression nope same as every other class that would look for a group. Now let's look at my answer every single class in the game would have gotten the same answer. The problem isn't group balance so much as soloing. I as a wizard box a SK. Why do I box a SK because I would say that every single 105 trash mob I pull there is a 3/16 chance that it will kill me with a lucky round if I have to tank it. That number goes up to 3/4 when you get to tier 2 TBM. Yes I can go into a DH HA and crush it because everything is root able, but if a name spawns even if I needed it I can't kill it. Belive me I have tried with cleric and tank Merc. These numbers are also effected by the 2 hand dodge nurf that went under the radar a few weeks ago. Shield block is now better ,but not as good as 2H was. To reliable get through TBM Progresion I had to box or group there was no choice. And the missions I think for all classes required more DPS then even a Wizard can deal on his or her Own so that's not really what I'm saying here. If you could just root mobs then all classes would butcher content. It would become a range based game. Besides root just got Nurfed. So yea if they made all mobs rootable or snarable and completely removed tanking from the game I could seem mages as hindered classes that have to summon a pet just to kill stuff but they are not that they are beast that in a lot of cases far overpower the solo ability of other classes. Sorry to bust your bubble but the classes are fundamentally different when it comes to how we beat content.

You are doing it wrong entirely. This is what I meant. "I am an enchanter that goes out of mana" basically is saying "i am really bad and have no idea what the spells do in my spellbook"

Go look up 101 to 105 spells on Eqresource, Study what they do, if your error isn't apparent in 5 minutes of looking at this list. Well at least your main is a wizard.

End of story: a chanter on full tilt doesn't have the problem you are describing.

Read Gotwar's post to which I was replying. That's exactly what he was saying.

Kind of missing the point that I was trying to make. But the same points would also apply regarding soloing.

If a soloing imbalance bothers you, why would you not be looking for better soloing ability instead of using it as your excuse for better raid DPS? It doesn't make any sense.

Fair enough. Nobody should ever take my advice on being an enc. I don't usually even mention it much. I play a wizard that happens to box an enc for adps, rune tank, charm pet, etc. Although, I am pretty good at pulling. I think. I don't even mem dps spells 99% of the time. During a raid I'll hit intellectual appropriation once in a while that's about it. I only looked at enc dps recently since people were talking about it being decent. And being a wiz I wasn't really that motivated to put much effort into it.

You can't throw out the group game just because raiding is the end goal for most who play the game. The fact is that group content plays a huge role in EQ. You may not notice, or care to notice, that it exists and serves a valuable function, but it does. And to that end, there does need to be some balance. This doesn't just apply to mages vs wizards, but since we're all harping on that today we'll use it as an example. Why would random_scrublet_000 returning to EQ ever roll a Wizard if a Mage puts out similar DPS, but also has an awesome pet to solo/group tank with? When you create massive inequalities in the group game it affects everyone at large, not just the groupies. And yes, Mage DPS being at the level of Wizard DPS without a significant change to their pets would be a massive group inequality.

Boosting Mage DPS by swapping out Mage pets into one "uber DPS" pet would be one answer. Super high spell / melee mitigation, but with low hit points, avoidance, and significant DPS. Enough to survive an AE from a raid boss, but not enough to face-to-face tank in a group. Give the pet enough of a DPS boost and pet burn abilities to create a boon for Mage DPS. This would "balance" the equation and for bonus points it still fits Mage fluff.

I have never once said in this thread a single word about desirability. I haven't even implied it. The balance we all cry about has little to do with who's the most desirable, except when mega nerf-bats hit class xyz, and then we all suffer. Balance, except when things are horribly broken, has more to do with players and how they feel. "Am I f****** useless?" is not a question people should be asking themselves. And if Mages are asking themselves this because they're at the bottom of the "top-dps" tier but at/near the top of the "secondary-dps" tier, then IDK what to tell you.

No, I think group balance as it is for casters currently is just fine. Wizards fill their role and so do Mages. Necros stitch corpses or some s***. Don't ask me about Enchanters

The "group utility" imbalance is fixed through group DPS, not raid DPS. I think you're attributing something to my posts that isn't there. Group balance is fixed with group balance, raid balance is fixed with raid balance, but their needs to be some small level of crossover between the two, no matter how small. You can't simply forget one in favor of the other because "everyone raids rawr rawr f*** group content".

The "false dilemma" of dropping the Mage pet is meant to sound stupid. If Mage's ditched their pets they'd be Wizards.

Top 3 best solo/group class and you want top raid dps? Damn, not even us Enchanters think we deserve that, and we're a bunch of conceited a**hats.

Edit:

I never said this. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Mages aren't top 3 Group class by a long shot
And Solo class depends on so many variables, but in any list that involves raid gear they arent in the top 3 for sure, Honestly id be surprised if they made the top 5.

Mages are great at gearing up through group content whilst soloing, however if you compare what a mage at 105 with max AA and max group gear can do, in comparison to the other usual suspects for soloing content in similar gear/AA... Mages are coming up abit short. Although TBM group content is so lulzezmode its hard to really rank classes in soloing.

If you start talking about what a raid geared mage can solo in comparison to the usual suspects. Yep looks even more bleak.

Last I checked there aren't too many mages running around soloing ROF+ era raids. (unless you count magebox armies on FV lulz)

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