More wizard nerfs? Really?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Aaay, Jul 6, 2016.

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  1. Igniz Augur

    You can still port them to Plane of Sky, that way, they will at least lose their buffs :) Or did they "fix" the wizard port also, meanwhile, after they fixed guild hall teleportation?

    Luckily, I am no dev and don't have to make this decision :) I'll try to humour you, though. Let me set it up a bit differently, though. The following is my personal view on the classes of Norrath and don't neccessarily show their repsective players opinions:

    Core Abilities: Tanking / DPS Burst-mid-sustained / Healing / Support

    Plate Classes
    Warrior: 10 / 4-4-4 / 1 (rudimentary self healing) / 3 Best Tank in Game, aggro-machine, situational battle-command flavour short duration group buffs can enhance group's abilities, gut-punch actually makes mob more susceptible and the like

    Shadow Knight: 9 / 6-5-5 / 4 (better self healing) / 2 Valid Tank alternative, emphasis on DPS, slightly bursty but pretty sustainable, intend on quickly overpower an enemy but able to also keep up on more enduring fights, little group utility (pulling, fear)

    Paladin: 9 / 4-4-4 / 7 (better self-healing + target/group healing) / 5 Valid Tank alternative, emphasis on the benevolent side of magic, inculding protection buffs, perhaps runes, special kind of short duration group runes, able to actively protect own group

    Cleric: 5 / 2-2-2 / 10 / 8: Best Healer in Game, strong protective magic

    Bard: 4 / 5-5-5 / 1 / 10: Can support different groups with their songs, decent melee DPS, not as good as dedicated damage dealer though


    Chain Classes
    Berserker: 5 / 10-8-6 / 0 (healing? CHAAAAAAAAAARGE!!) / 2 Hands down best melee burst DPS, strong breakoff after burns, they overpower their enemies in a massive avalanche of heavy strikes with their axe, yet break down in exhaustion quickly. I won't take away their warcry as I like all my limbs attached to my body

    Rogue: 4 / 9-8-7 / 0 (a man does not need healing if he is never caught) / 5 less bursty than zerkers, but with smaller dps loss on longer fights. Revival of traps and locks so rogues actually can use their crafts in Norrath. Less tanky than zerkers and rangers due to different combat philosophy, sneaky and stealthy

    Ranger: 5 / 7-8-9 / 5 / 6 emphasis on ranged DPS, able to stand his ground in melee, focussing fire or a barrage of swordstrikes able to hurt their enemies more the longer the fight goes on, together with the ability to inhibit their foes. Decent healers, due to their communion with the forces of nature

    Shaman: 3 / 3-4-5 / 8 / 7: Spiritual guides, imbuing their groups with powerful enhancing magic and tending to their bodily and spiritual injuries while also using the spirits to control and hinder their foes, damaging the longer the fight goes on

    Leather Classes (not what you think about, pervert :p)
    Beastlord: 4 / 8-8-8 / 5 / 5 Beastlords are powerhouses of endurance, together with their loyal warders, they are able to bring down even the most hardy foes, whittling them down little by little, while providing heals and support to their group with their experience in the outdoors, giving insight about the wild side

    Monks: 5 / 9-8-7 / 2 (selfheal only) / 4 Spiritual warriors with iron discipline, training in body and will, they excel and taking down their opponent with their long trained martial arts, confusing them with their acrobatic movements

    Druids: 3 / 5-4-3 / 8 / 7: While shamen invoke the power of the spirits, druids delve into the power of nature itself, strenghtening and sustaining their allies, while bringing the unbridled wrath of the elements down upon their foes, but, as nature as well, their wrath often vanishes as fast as the weather changes

    Silk Classes Those who are ironing their armor
    Wizards: 2 / 10-8-6 / 0 / 6: Masters of the arcane, wizards excel at destryoing their enemies in a volatile explosion magic energies but also mastered the academical part of magic science, able to bend the magic for transporting entire groups and raids, best caster burst DPS, strong loss of DPS after initial burst

    Necromancers 2 / 7-8-9 / 4 (healing their pets and maintaining their own living or unliving shells by feasting on their victim's essence) / 4: Masters of the dead and death itself, necromancers are powerful magic users who raise the dead and invoke plaques, diesease and other kinds of destructive magic, chipping away at the life of their enemies. With powerful undead knights to do their bidding, they are able to squeeze out the life of their enemies even more, the longer the fight goes on.

    Magicians: 2 / 8-8-8 / 4 (healing their pets) / 4: Tempering the raw power of the unbridled elements around them, magicians raise elemental spirits to do their bidding, able to assault their foe with a prolonged assault of elemental spells intent on bringing them down

    Enchanters: 3 / 6-6-6 / 0 / 10: Controlling the minds of friend and foe alike, these powerful sorcerers concentrate on maintaining a favourable position on the battlefield, be it by strenghtenining their allies or confounding their foes, the possiblities for an enchanter to control the flow of battle are distinct and diverse


    Again, the above mentioned shows only my personal point of view. I hope I caught the essence of the classes aptly while also pointing out the aspects of balance which I deem important. This post actually took quite longer than I expected. I am grateful that I don't have to balance 16 classes in my online game.

    Edit:
    Pickup trucks, minivans and electic sedans though continue to work long after the rather high-maintenance low life-span racing car has broken down. Currently, at least in EQ, the racing car is going round, and round, and round, and round, and round ...
  2. Ravengloome Augur

    Iggy I think I need to server xfer back to Anton. Your ranking system has some anomalous ranks.
  3. Igniz Augur

    It's not a current ranking, it's a "how I imagine a better Norrath" ;-) but you're always welcome on Antonius :)
  4. Ravengloome Augur

    Ugh if I still worked 3rd shift, Tide blowing up gave me motivation to get a day job lulz
  5. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    The world needs it's fluffers and such! Enjoy your new handyman role.
  6. Behelit Augur

    dat ench dps tho
    Sancus and Vdidar like this.
  7. kizant Augur

    It's fixed. :(

    It's the fun part! The idea of a mid dps is interesting but I can't quite figure out what it means. Going by the numbers here it looks like just an average of burst and sustained. Or is it to account for the use of leftover abilities that didn't get used up in the first 2 minutes of a burn?

    If you're going with an average then were you thinking it wold like this? We burn through all our abilities in about 2 minutes and then the refresh on a lot of those is around 12 minutes or some longer. Keeping the math easy let's say we have 10 minutes of sustained after the 2 minutes of burst. The mid point where mage and wiz dps would be equal should be the 6 minute mark? Then mage dps should be higher until the beginning of the next burn phase?

    Do you think a wizard casting runes should be equivalent to a mage keeping their pet healed? Or maybe you're not considering a pet as a way to avoid damage at all? You're just healing them because they've accidentally gotten agro or were hit by AOE or something?
  8. Igniz Augur

    it's actually three different fight durations: Burns up to 3-4 minutes, sustained starting at 8-10 minutes, medium duration fight in the middle. I am not too sure if this is achieved by averaging out burn-phases with non-burn-phases or assuming that the approximate duration of the event is known and classes spread out their discs accordingly.

    The figures shown indicate the ability to maintain a higher average DPS during that period, e.g. while wizards are capable of bursting for a very large amount, correspondent to a blowturch cutting open a metal door, necromancers need a bit of time to reach a considerable high amount of damage, but are able to maintain this level for a far longer period of time, equivalent of using a blowtorch on minimum setting to heat up a can of beans and pork (ouch, what a lame comparison. Somebody roast me for it ... just, not with a blowtorch ...). As it is the standard in todays EQ, it makes probably more sense to use all discs that stack in a burn and wait for them to pop up again rather than spread them out in most cases, though, so I'd agree with your version about mages and necros overtaking wizards after their burn, but wizards making a strong comeback in a fight long enough to actually warrant a second burn phase.

    TBH; I didnt put pet tanking into the tanking section, as casters iron their armor. I put pet tanking into the utility sector, also due to the reason that pet holders have little opportunity to adapt the way their pets are tanking (e.g. pet armor etc, lack of discs, etc.). Also, I consider pet tanking a stopgap at all times. Be the pets hardy as they come, a tank class should ALWAYS be far superior in tanking power than a pet. Apart from that, I do tend to treat pets more of a source of damage that has to be micromanaged and kept alive by it's owner under the DPS segment.

    Send them to your secondary anchor then, put that anchor in a house you don't use and wall off the exit :D Most people don't look at the teleport prompt and just click it anyway. Not that I ever did that on my druid *whistles*

    I know a warrior who died after the raid ended, because a necro slipped him a sacrifice before TL came. The warrior clicked it, didn't realize he didn't actually clicked a TL and immediately logged off for a six week vacation XD
  9. gotwar Gotcharms

    Thanks, Brohg. This more or less sums up the difference I was trying to point out between a "pure" dps class and a "secondary" dps class. Regardless of players' individual views or philosophies, this is pretty clearly the path the game-design has taken since 1999.
  10. Igniz Augur

    Ask a wizard who raided anywhere between MPG and Solteris how he felt about being a racing-car back then. Wizards at that time were more of a single seat ramjet engine, capable of high speeds but equally prone to evaporating in a quite spectacular manner. Our guild distributed an audiotrigger on "Ulex has been slain" that boomed "OVERNUKER! Doooooooooooown!" at least six times every raid. Or he survived and had no mana after the three minute mark of the fight. And then, there were wizards who used a more moderate approach on longer fights, like the wildmagic and chaos lines of spells, actually using Gift of Mana for best effect ... but these times have long since gone...
  11. Sancus Augur

    The issue with Brohg's examples is that both Enchanter and Druid abilities do have a benefit for the raid. Enchanters are very important for caster ADPS, and CC is definitely important in some raids (though poor design has made it less so). The gap in healing between Druids and Clerics becomes more important in raids, but they still can and do heal for caster groups, as well as provide ADPS. I just don't see how that's comparable to pets being actually useless in raids. And no, pets are not tanking on raids. Water pets get ripped to shreds, and if you're using an earth pet on raids....

    Edit: Plus, Mages generally have been a sustained DPS class since 1999. Not sure what you're seeing in game design.
    Spellfire, Vdidar and Igniz like this.
  12. Igniz Augur

    On raids, pets are rather more of a liability, as you have to consistently make sure that a chunk of your DPS doesn't die ... or simply stops attacking the mob without you noticing. On other raids, pets get banned alltogether because there COULD go something wrong.
  13. Kunon Augur

    Pfft. It's all about having Shiny Bob to tank those named.
    Igniz likes this.
  14. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    Shots fired!

    Careful sir or you might attract the attention of She-who-must-not-be-named-keke ^ . ^
    Vdidar and Sancus like this.
  15. Ravengloome Augur

    Still jelly of my utility
    IKNORIT.
  16. Behelit Augur


    they are probably the most underrated class at dpsing atm, its kinda sad Bards havent caught on and asked for a similar increase. I only leave Shamans out of that statement since theoretically they're already slated for changes for the "DoT revamp", whenever that may or may not happen.
    Vdidar likes this.
  17. gotwar Gotcharms

    You're kinda striking the quintessential problem between raid balance vs group balance. You're right, Mage's don't really add much to a raid beyond DPS. Mod rods, I guess. But therein lies the problem. Would you guys ditch your pet to be on par with WIzard DPS? Because I think in the name of "balance" (which, lets be fair, we can all agree has been a running joke in EQ since release) that's what would be needed.

    You just can't have an exceptional group tanking ability while also putting out the same raid DPS as a class who's only function group/raid is DPS. It skews things too far to one side and is unfair to classes without that additional role.

    I think this entire thread has gone off-kitler a bit, but I think some things most of us agree on are:

    - Berserker, Rogue, Wizard, and Monk DPS needs some tweaking so that there's more variety between them
    - Monks need a hug. They're sort of stuck in this weird "dps-limbo" and have been for too long.
    - Force nukes shouldn't cost 1000 mana a cast

    I think it's boring that Berserker's are the untouchable DPS kings. Every raid leader can always go "needs moar zerker" in every situation. That sux and needs some tweaking. Good "balance" would mean some variation even when fight length is taken into account. When this isn't present, everyone suffers.

    And in regards to Mages being sustained DPS since 1999.... They were always a second-tier DPS class. We just never told them because we wanted to abuse Call of the Hero. :)
  18. Vdidar Augur

    Sometimes I wonder if people use average parses of elite classes and elite parses of average classes to come up with the arguments they do.
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  19. Sheex Goodnight, Springton. There will be no encores.

    The problem with this logic is, Wizards pretty much had this "king" role you speak of for quite awhile recently, where stacking them was nothing but beneficial (Hello, Beimeth's Angels) while zerkers were awful beyond awful. Was it "boring" then? Or are people just whining about having one of their jelly beans taken away coupled with another kid getting more of them?

    I really don't see a problem with the pendulum swinging zerk's way for awhile - it never lasts, and they have to deal with higher reliance on adps, higher risk of death, self root/blinding and worse penalties when they do eat it (which seems pretty often, eh?). I say good for them, enjoy a little time in the sunshine, much deserved after years of living in the attic with only a bucket of fish heads a day for sustenance.
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  20. Igniz Augur

    And if zerker's are cool, they hit the pendulum to swind around for monks a bit, also :)
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