Mob HP bloat over last 3 expansions

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Vizier, Dec 31, 2020.

  1. Vizier Augur

    TBL trash mob: a pyre armor = 13 million HP
    ToV trash mob: a Ry'Gorr Miner = 21 million HP
    CoV trash mob: a frosted dracoliche = 36 million HP

    TBL trash mob exp per kill: .05%
    ToV trash mob exp per kill: .06%
    CoV trash mob exp per kill: .08%

    Mob HP values are skyrocketing compared to DPS classes' increased damage gains over those same expansions. Wizards in particular feel this impact because our damage is front loaded with Vortex. Mages have a similar problem.

    These huge HP boat mobs favor sustained DPS over burst. We are seeing a design trend that has made certain classes feel unsatisfying to play. Why play caster DPS and fight an uphill battle against giant HP pools that are inflated when you can play a melee dps and not care?
  2. minimind The Village Idiot

    Two things:

    1. There are tiers of difficulty within "trash mobs". The giants in ToV EW have significantly more HP than your random ghoul. Are all three of the trash you selected for comparison part of the same "tier"?
    2. People demand DPS upgrades. If they're not matched with increased HP on trash, we're just killing things more and more quickly. Too quickly.
  3. Vizier Augur

    1) a frost giant noble has the same HP (35 million) as a dracholiche, but KD is a Tier 2 zone so I didnt feel it was a fair comparison.
    2) All classes should be able to do their respective jobs, but the current HP bloat is seriously favoring some over others.

    As for solutions I think Int casters should probably have some %HP spell lines created that cannot crit but are guaranteed to chunk.
  4. Shakara Augur

    I think the problem encountered here is that there is need be more reasons to have burst DPS and sustained DPS other than mob HP pool. To explain what I mean. Mobs need mechanics that reward bust DPS or sustained DPS some of these could be like: Mob goes invul for brief period of time (Sustained DPS), Mob does more damage the more HP it has (Burst DPS).

    Raw DPS doesn't have to be the only factor is to making your damage useful which I think would be a more interesting way to try and fix the problem. A simple example for a raid encounter is that you can have a phase where you have a short DPS check with a low overall damage requirement and a phase with a long DPS check with a large overall damage requirement. this would reward balanced raids and give different types of DPS classes to shine.
  5. Vizier Augur

    Here is a summary of my last 50 fights. Wizard out performs mage by a good amount in my live field tests. The problem isn't Wizard vs Mage, it's Wizard vs every melee class out there...
    https://imgur.com/OAvjOlL
  6. kizant Augur

    I hope that Mage is level 105.
  7. Vizier Augur

    I get that your comment was meant to be derisive. Not really sure why, but here are the test conditions:


    All toons are lvl 115 (obviously). I may have missed a bit of mage dps as this was my wizards log, but not a ton. There were a few namers and burns in there. This a solid test because its just raw field data from my Enc Wiz Mag trio, unskewed or biased.

    For reference all toons are in full Velium Threaded gear, Mage has EM 24 golden sage ear.

    Mage nuke cycle for these fights: RS > 115 Spear > Chaotic > 110 Spear. Mage using water pet x2 rageblades.
  8. kizant Augur

    200k DPS is what you'd expect from a Mage during EoK. I don't see how that's derisive.

    That was the lineup the entire time? Even with burns or using all your swarm pets?
  9. Vizier Augur

    Your comment was made to make me look incompetent as a mage. I assure you, I am not. This is my actually my 3rd mage, I really enjoy them and I know them quite well. I do a more damage now on the mage than I did at 110 in RoS I have no idea what to tell you.


    Regarding mage nuke order, yes that was unchanged the whole time for the duration of the test. I run 3 box set up and some concessions must be made for practicality's sake. All 3 toons target the mobs, debuff on inc, then run their nukes cycles together. When playing the Wizard or mage individually I can up the per toon dps A BIT by weaving and triggering procs etc, but overall that requires a ton of mental bandwidth for only a fractional dps increase. Also I have found that the Wizard benefits from individual attn much more than the mage, Mage really doesnt have many choices to make during a normal nuke spam.

    After looking through the logs a bit more I see my mage tieing or beating the Wizard on any WW mob that goes over 55secs or so. Wizard clearly wins each mob that dies 30 secs or less.
    I think the area that the wizard was able to take the damage lead because of the burn cycles. Non burn battles are neck-and-neck between the two if they last the average 45-55 secs.
  10. Vizier Augur

    I feel like this is an important topic. I think it is way more valuable to look at live field tests where you can see their actual production in are group over time, rather than testing in a vacuum (dps tool) or on a combat dummy. Here is another 50 fight log, this time from Mage log so no possible DPS missed for him. We are in same zone but this time it's brood hatchlings. There are a couple burns in the batch same as the last 50.

    https://imgur.com/QDSHZGr
  11. Szilent Augur

    The deal is that you're presenting your highly specific implementation of EverQuest play as an issue of global class balance. You do "this", whatever "this" is, under some arbitrary set of conditions, and get some result. The whole setup, your whole experience, is one data point.
  12. Vizier Augur

    Ok but it's at least a starting point. I dont see anyone else making any sort of attempt to quantify the problem and until we do that there no hope at all of a fix. Keep in mind I have NO HOPE WHATSOEVER that they will improve WIzard current place. These people have demonstrated that they can BARELY handle their own development cycle that is already in place, and they have no room at all for fixing existing class balance issues.

    Our only hope remains in that the design philosophy will change in the NEXT expansion. If they continue the current trend of simply bloating the mobs hps by a factor of 2 each expansion we will only fall further and further behind.
  13. kizant Augur

    That's nice for a bot group but that's not how actual players play. The mage should be using shockwave of many when you have all your swarms out during burn, avoid wasting casts of chaotic when you're using ITC, use rains when your crit rate is low, and even obliterate the unnatural is useful when thaumaturge's focus is running. You should checkout their discord or something because it appears you're missing out.
    Cadman and Szilent like this.
  14. Vizier Augur

    Your posts feel so hostile! I am not your enemy. Disregarding adjustments to burn spell, the nuke cycle and the DPS produced stands. I'm not worried about missing some DPS during a burn nor is that the purpose of this discussion. And for the record I DO actually have burn spell set that has Of Many in the cycle. I just normally cant be bothered to swap them in an group exp grind for ores or what have you.

    Don't worry about the details when squeezing out extra burn DPS, that is just icing on the cake. Our purpose here is to look at DPS on a mob over mob average on a real world test.
  15. Szilent Augur

    The "real world test" in this case is intimately linked to your specific choices on what to "bother" with.
    Raccoo and kizant like this.
  16. Cicelee Augur

    200k for a magician grouped with a wizard and an enchanter is extremely low, and is the reason why you feel it is taking you so long to kill COV mobs and their "bloated" hit points.

    Judging from your responses to others, understand I am not trying to be disrespectful or rude. Just stating a fact. 200k for a magician in COV when grouped with a wizard and an enchanter is very low.
    Cadman likes this.
  17. Derka Power Ranger

    Outside perspective on this is, is that Kizant is just pointing out that non boxed real mages will put out more DPS. It is nothing against you personally, he seems to just be stating that this isn't a shared issue amongst players and then further offered advice to up your personal group DPS. This thread is about mob bloat, yeah T1 CoV mobs have 35 million hp, once you get to T2 it goes up to 50 mil and they hit WAY harder. This can pose issues for duos or boxers but if you put up a real group to the test it goes much smoother. People pulling their own weight and all.
    WeezFv likes this.
  18. Vaeeldar Augur

    So I don’t disagree wit any of this. That said my 3 mage group (with ench) vs my 3 ber and 3 monk group no real comparison but mage is at least useful. My 3 wiz group got retired because they have become useless in todays EQ. The Op is wrong about mage - that said only necro truly compete from a caster stand point today. But melee destroy wiz and beat mage pretty heftily.
  19. Vizier Augur

    Can I see another mage please post their DPS from last 50 fights for comparison. So far all I hear is a lot of people talking about DPS and no actual data. Here is another 50 fight list from me. TOFS second floor key grind.

    https://imgur.com/tgv3Tte

    I am on Cazic, I play all the time. How about one of you folks that thinks I am nanners just group with me and show me how wrong I am? I would LOVE for someone to come play their uber mage and start pumping out tons more DPS than my mage can during an exp grind. I would seriously love that, and we could look at the fight logs!

    Any takers or just talkers?
  20. Vizier Augur

    The problem isn't even Mage vs Wizard. The problem is melee vs caster dps in general. I don't see anyone even attempting to argue that melee is equal to caster dps at this point. I seriously don't even know why this turned into mage vs wiz.

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