Making Progression Not Required On Release Then REQUIRING It?

No.
That is NOT the question that should be asked.
You have a point with the gear you mention, but gear != completing an expansion.
See how easy it is to reject that kind of "reasoning"?

And as was said here or elsewhere already (and repeated many a time since because people apparently don't get it), there's always some events that one guild with their roster has an easier time with than another guild with theirs.
We have only a few guilds serverwide with truly "optimal" rosters, as the Dev's probably had them in mind when "tuning" (the word is mostly a joke when one looks at the how it's done) the events.
So saying that "if you cannot beat the previous expansion, why should you raid in the current one at all?" is trying to apply very false "logic".

Wrong again, from my point of view.
Outdating a previous expansion's gear is what made EoK different from any we had before.
RoS is merely returning to more what the norm should be.


The only "upside" to this all is that i see that open raids might be viable again next summer for EoK stuff, if only to "properly" flag ALTs. But that would not really require them making the progression arc (group or raid) in EoK mandatory in RoS. So a bad move remains a bad move.

Only too true.
And also perhaps THE reason why those that haven't done it by now are up on the fence about needing it (or made to feel like they'll need it) for a different expansion.
And i am not looking forward to doing it again either, should i (against expectations with the server-problems we STILL have) decide to activate more of my older accounts.
Finding people (outside of a guild-structure that requires it) to actually do progression tasks is hard enough already. And even in guilds that require it, the "burden" seems to always fall onto the same few people, sadly. So requiring it on and on IS a burden, no matter how desirable the sideeffects are.

And effectively locked out of some other content i understand? (from reading the forum only, mind you, since i do not do beta). This might be mitigateable if one can be TA'd to the mission in question in a similar fashion to FM/Droga/Chardok partisans. If not though, this might be impacting in a negative way.

Meh...
Nudging of that kind should be from peers imo, not Devs or a linear progression in a mostly non-linear "world".

EXACTLY!!!
This is the core of it really as i see it.
While this is a reason - and a (or really "the only" ) true one at that imo - i think you can agree that it's not a GOOD one by itself?
I said it before:
When i consider this reason, i can even "understand" the move - from a dev/business and "thought-based" perspective.
From a customer and "emotional" perspective i still do not like it though, it puts me off DESIPTE meeting the "requirements" already. And it's putting me further off than i already are from re-activating more accounts yet.

Honestly, if i weren't in a raiding guild i would probably boycott RoS alltogether.
Even in my guild people (very active and "older" raiders especially) are still very much divided on whether we should even attempt to raid RoS with the server's/chat-system being in the state they are. I think we might "have to" anyways, but the resentment is there already and this progression thing/the reason you gave above for doing it this way is adding to that.
I see this "forcing us" as an admittance of what is already a downward spiral - not good for a perspective from my point of view :/

Gah...
What a bad, BAD "argument".
Actually, it should be a punishable offense to make such invalid connections like you do.
=> ( New expansion = clean slate ) != "wanting things handed to them"

Or have you seen anyone asking "oh, then just flag everyone who bought RoS for Essence1" or something similar? No, you haven't. the most you see is people taking the earlier example of VoA/RoF (which, as was said above, was the closest we had to this situation i think) where the new expansion offers some speed-way for that purpose alone.

The reasons are probably as numerous as the people that haven't done it yet.
Most likely they involve things like "low playtime overall" and "prefer to join friends who are already online in doing what they do rather than to bug them into helping me with things they didn't like much themselves".
You know... being a nice, easy-to-be-with person with time-constraints.

The question i am really NOT dying to know for (that would be such a wasted death) is:
WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S A GOOD THING TO REQUIRE LINEAR PROGRESSION IN A NON-LINEAR GAME???

Haha, i like this.
But really: EQ has never actually "required" people to do quests, despite it's name.
EQ has OFFERED quests, some more worth doing than others. And EQ has - over time - offered incentives beyond that actual quest-reward for spending time on (some of) them.
But you did not need a quest or quest line in Faydwer to go to Antonnica. You did not need a single quest in Kunark to go to ALL places in Velious either. Luclin was an "on top" to all of that as well.
As was everything since, up to this point.

And regarding the gear:
I hope that they'll put some substitute material into the game, similar to how it was done on previous expansions with tiered gear. As i hope for (ample) backflags for EoK T3 in RoS.
Because i do not see us going back and back again to EoK for every app we might get over the next year.

Hmm.
I have to agree and both disagree with this last sentence of yours.

Agree because "Mantle of Delirium" and "BiFaak's Silence" might be somewhat hard to get as the camp is perma-occupied.
Disagree because, like others have said none of these drops are required or exclusive to that camp only.
Hunter Haltha has quite similar shoulders, and is much less camped for example.
Similar alternatives exist for all slots, basically.

So "specific drops" is just as invalid an argument as "i have done so why can't you".
It is a fact that you can get ALL 8 T2 visibles (and those are the only slots we talk about in this context) from Droga or Chardok just as well as you can get them from Labs.

As for Kar'Zok in EoK:
All of Labs is "free" except where the alchemists/labs area begins - and you can still move deeper, if you are careful. You can even safely kill the named that drops the T2 caster shield.
The only part where you can NOT avoid them anymore is in the T3.3 fight / Overlord-area.
But that area is "required" only for Labs partisan #3 (and Hunter, obviously) too, at which point you have already completed the Essence1.

Sorry, I was not talking about the value of lore itself. The only advantage players gain when previous progression is required is that players can know the EoK lore and RoS lore in correct order. As you already know about EoK lore first, "requiring EoK progression first" has no benefit for you.

However, TBM progression (or EotD1) is not required in EoK progression, so people who have not finished TBM progression has never been burden in EoK progression. RoS is the first expansion that requires previous expansion progression for current expansion progression. I will not complain if there is alternate path to get Kar`Zok immunity in RoS, without fighting Kar`Zok first.

It may be a bit hard to understand from raiding player's perspective, so please allow me to explain with extreme example.

If TDS and later expansions require all previous expansion progression, raiding players will gain more Hero's AAs, as they are useless in raid without flag. For group geared players, when they could not beat single quest in linear progression, they lose the ability to challenge further. So their Hero's AAs will decrease significantly.

This is what will happen in RoS. If EoK progression is not required, casuals still can try, work hard, and enjoy Skyfire mission and further. They may not be able to finish all progression, but they can have fun with their friends and returning players when doing it.

Your may be confusing the benefit of progression itself with the benefit of "requiring previous progression". Doing RoS/EoK first and EoK/RoS next gives exactly same strength. Doing only easy stuff may be bad, but doing more interesting and HOT thing first, and less interesting and old thing next is not so bad.

Yes, YES. You KNOW the problem. You know exactly why the design is changed.

The largest problem is how it is implemented. If they want to make raiding players busy, for example, they could make a new quest that gives lesser version of EotD which does nothing in raid. They could change the design in less detrimental way for casuals. You are getting 6 zones, but casuals will probably get 2 less zones (Gorowyn and VP) so about 33% of zones are unavailable. For you, TDS may have been somewhat tedious expansion. For casuals, it was literally "Brother Island expansion".

This is why I mentioned about the possibility that raid armor keeps requiring previous expansion armor to make. If they successfully made raiders busy, but failed to grab money from casuals, they have to make raid-related things more tedious and try to gain more money from you. This is not good change, so it should be reverted.

Oh. By the way.
Looking at Zam, it appears that RoS group gear visibles currenntly stands at:
T1 RoS, "Scale Touched" requires a COHORT's (EoK T1) piece and a Scale Touched --- Facet (presumably T1 named drop)
T2 RoS, "Scaled", requires a Selrach's piece and a Scaled --- Facet.
And of course, there is the crafted stuff sitting in beteen.

Those of you who recently farmed T2 and tributed your Cohorts bits are welcome to go cry in a corner (I am doing that now)

Might not be a good one by itself, but it's better than the alternative. There have been fewer and fewer of everything each year. Fewer resources, devs, zones, raids, missions, quests, tasks, players, raiders, guilds, etc. This expansion is only 6 zones - it's tiny. But the devs work with what they've been given, and they're going to artificially expand it by requiring previous content. By the sound of it, a lot of this content has yet to be enjoyed by a notable population of players.

EoK was a massive increase in power from TBM - 10k+ AAs per class, and near-raid-level group gear. It's a large undertaking to complete for a casual player in one year. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be completed though.

Comparatively, little has been said about the amount we're getting in the expansion. This thread is on its 13th page, and other threads have similar counts - some 20+, and one 30+. The alternative is less content for all. At the moment we have 22 guilds (I think?) that have completed EoK. That's 22 guilds that are only getting 6 zones of new content. They don't have new-to-them tasks to complete, or new-to-them raids to complete. They just have the new 6. If this content lock was removed, it would be 40+ guilds + another 40+ family-style guilds that have only the new 6 to complete. The focus would be on the lack of content, instead of having us actually complete content. It's a smart move.

There is benefit for me. There's a continuation of the story I've been pursuing. There's a confirmation that the effort I've put forward so far actually has value, instead of a catch-up or a skip-all function. Most importantly, it's a signal that what I do in RoS and future expansions won't be immediately invalidated in a year.

People who haven't completed EotD1 won't be any more of a burden in RoS than they are in EoK. Avoid the Kar`Zok in EoK by not going to camps in Lab that have Kar`Zok. Avoid Kar`Zok in RoS by not going to camps in Gorowyn that have Kar`Zok. Simple.

Why would there need to be an alternate path? If you haven't completed it in EoK, it would be new content to you. Why do you want to invalidate effort put forth by the majority of players already? Would you want your effort invalidated because someone didn't want to follow the same path you did?

I see your argument now. You're not able to progress any farther in EoK, which means no more heroic AAs there, and you can't even begin the heroic AAs in RoS. However, with the increase in RoS power you should be able to go back to finish off the progression in EoK, as well as the heroic AAs, and then carry on in RoS.

The increased power from RoS is going to help you complete what you couldn't complete in EoK. There are no restrictions on levels, AAs, or spells. Armor is only slightly restricted, and you can have a full set of T2 without doing any of the EoK progression. My bard box has a full set of T2 and I haven't even touched Gates with him yet.

Agreed - RoS-EoK or EoK-RoS results in the same strength. But did you complete TBM? TDS? CotF? Each of these contains something that increases character strength (augs, spells, heroic AAs). Are people actually going back to complete these after a newer expansion comes out? In my experience, no. That experience is from reviewing applicants to raid guilds - a surprising amount hadn't completed even half of their heroic AAs.

They're not making raiders busy. As I mentioned above, I'll have 6 zones to work in. I expect to be max level before the year ends, and max AAs shortly after (at least the useful ones). Progression will take a month, maybe a bit longer with the VP key progression.

You might be right about 33% of the zones being unavailable. But chances are, Lab has been unavailable for you. Now you're up to 5/6. What else was unavailable in EoK for you? Chardok? Droga? The increased levels, spells, and armor are going to make these zones available for you, and you're actually encouraged to go there. Now instead of 6 zones new to you, you've got an additional 1-2, so 133% of the content a raider is getting.

TDS being "Brother's Island Expansion" means you're missing Caverns, Degmar, Thuliasaur, Combine, and Arx. 5 zones. If it were a requirement to have these zones complete before you progressed in TBM too far, that's a substantial increase in content for you. And this reinforces a point I made above - now that you have the power to complete these zones, have you actually gone back to strengthen your character?

edit: double post...

So people with a full selrach-set can jump directly to RoS tier 2?
And people with cohort-sets can farm RoS tier 1 drops(optional), and THEN go back to EoK-zones and farm downgrades(selrach) before going to back to RoS and farm RoS tier 2 ?

That doesn't make sense??

Wait, what? Character progression? Progression?
Progression
Progression
Progression
Progression
Progression
Progression
Progression

That is not any logic I was getting at. The logic I was getting at is that people are complaining about having to flag EoK raids to do RoS raids, as if they are expecting to just skip EoK and jump right in and raid RoS content and be able to beat it. Raid guilds...guilds that raid content as it comes out and live, have already done the raids, gotten the flags, etc., so they are already ready to go when next xpac goes live. But, I am certainly not saying that anyone who feels like tackling the new raids without having gone through older raids is certainly within their rights to try...just don't expect a win out of it.

People are expecting this game to be like WoW...dumbed down, jump in at anytime and do current content off the bat, raiding the latest and greatest. EQ was never like that, you were expected to work for what you got in game. And I am glad it still is like that, for the most part.

Now, I have never debated whether this is a good move or bad one by DBG. What I have argued is that DBG has put this out, so instead of sitting around spending 13 pages on a forum complaining about it, use your (not you personally Zhaunil) time to get together and get done what needs to be done. I have also argued that, even for casual players, EoK progression is doable. I have argued that MOST of RoS does not need Essence of the Dragon I to hunt, gear up, etc.

Regardless of whether this is a good or bad idea, you have decisions to make. 1) Sit around, complaining about it, and do nothing in the mean time; or 2) Comment on whether or not this is a bad idea, but adapt and overcome the current obstacle and help others do the same. No different than RL stuff that gets thrown at you...it may not make sense, but you either let it sit there and block your way, or you find a way around, over, or through it and get to the other side and keep going.

Yes, DBG may take out these requirements in the future. But we will treat it like any other thing that has majorly changed in the game to make it easier for people later on...
"Man, you think you have it rough now...back in the day I had to....." you say with pride because you accomplished that. Wear it like a medal on your chest...DBG threw something at me, and I handled it.

Ahh, ye olde "If I lose the argument, do a personal attack" defense.

Nice job on going back and editing what you said, Millianna.

So what you are saying is that people do not need an entire set of T2 EoK gear to get RoS gear?

There goes one peasant superstition.

Some are complaining that they could not do EOK progression because no one else was doing it. Well the good news is that there are going to be quite a few that need to do it. Now is a great time to group up with those and knock them out, either today or on expansion release. Plus getting those couple of extra levels early on will help with EOK progression too!

Please read my post. I won that argument. The quest is EverQuest refers to player progression such as levels, gear, and few other things per original dev team. You can’t use today’s standard- progression tasks in the definition because it was beyond the intention of the original dev team.

This is not what Ngreth said here - https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/items.244547/

That post was a month of beta testing/tuning ago.