Rogues are a pure melee dps class with essentially 0 utility. The fact that they get outparsed by monks and rangers both of whom have utility means they are a joke.
also you have to take into account gear and the person at the keyboard not half-assing it. i mean they even have auto BS now but you still will find bad rogues. Just yesterday i was in a group with 2 rogues besides myself and i thought their play suxed w/e they were doing i don't know but when i looked at a combine parse for the time the group was there i was doing over 40% of the damage output of a full group so like i said it really depends on more than i'm just going to make a rogue bazaar gear it and thing you are gonna be some sort of DPS you wont. those are my 2 cents if you don't have the time to put into a rogue i wouldn't make one.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, they are being used. Extensively? I doubt it. So once you were in a group where a cleric said, "Hey a named just popped." and from that you got extensively?
No, that was just an example I used to indicate that people are using it and aren't afraid to admit it, even to strangers in a pickup group. I have heard enough from various sources to know that usage is, if not widespread, then fairly common in certain circles.
Utility is kind of a non-argument in a raid situation. You only need one tracker, two to three pullers, etc. You need a lot of dps, and you aren't going to say no to a good player over a few percentage points of potential dps. Show me a raid guild that doesn't have Rogues on the roster.
Your argument is flawed. First, there isn't a 5-10% difference between the various melee dps classes, it can be, and usually is, far more. Next, your argument precludes the classes offering anything other than dps. When you look at utility, rogues offer lockpicking (useful in like 1 zone, shared with 1 other class), and poisons (worthless). Ie, essentially none. They lack a spellbook, taunt, tanking, mend, heals, ranged, and are linked to the back of a mob. So yes, when you can do similar, or better dps, while having a spellbook or a ton more utility in other areas, this is why people say not to play a rogue unless you really really just want to play a rogue.
I can only shake my head that DBG think rogues are even remotely balanced. The same issues were raised back in era, but it still took them many expansions to fix. I'd be shocked if anyone at dbg even plays a rogue. There's no reason monks should be so far ahead of rogue dps. It's a little frustrating since it's so easily fixed either through items, backstab modifier adjustment, or poison revamp. As its TLP, I guess we are cursed to suffer through it until the class is balanced.
I'd consider myself to be a Classic->PoP veteran on rogue at this point as this is my 4th rogue in this era. Rogues in classic are a labor of love... You REALLY have to love the class to put up with just how underwhelming their DPS contribution is. If you're determined to play a rogue, at Server Launch, I would recommend having a pre-made group ready to level with, otherwise make friends fast and try to group with them as often as you can. The name of the game is going to be "pro-activeness wins the day". As one of the rogues to hit 50 first on the server (I was top 5), I did it by building relationships with a few people who played a lot and had steady groups. I'd proactively reach out to them to find out when a dps slot opened and I'd often hang around ready to join, helping to dps outside group until a spot opened. I wouldn't take offense (although it was hard a times) when they wanted to rep me with a guildie (thankfully that happened only twice) but expect that to happen if you don't have your own guildies or pre-made. As a rogue, I was the first rogue to hit 60 and 65 on Phinigel and that was accomplished with pre-mades. As the server matures, you'll probably find yourself playing with a crew of people you enjoy. We took a little time off work at expansion launch to grind out levels quickly to get them out of the way. We were prepared with some outside group support boxes and it made things a lot more fun. From a raiding standpoint, MOTM1, even to this day sucks. In Classic, it was tough making Top 10 parses. If you're dedicated and want to parse as best as you can, you'll find the best ratio weapons you can and swap in a serpent's tooth (13/27 from Yael), crys spear (13/30 from Vox), or efreeti spear (15/40 from sky) for each stab. Monks will reign supreme (get used to this trend). Good casters would wipe the floor with our deeps on bosses too. There's something about MOTM1 though, I haven't scientifically nailed this down by any means but to this day, when my small group crew goes back to do Vox/Naggy for fun, the monk in our group does a ton more damage than I do. This same monk I'm able to keep up with on parses in PoP, but in classic, I get destroyed. In Kunark things get better. I remember back in the day when Kendrick released a preview of what Kunark rogues would look like, it was exciting (post link: http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/.../2973-kendrick-s-comments-on-kunarkian-rogues). Double backstabs, some cool disciplines, run-speed sneak, a good epic weapon... All factors that helped make the rogue a more desirable overall class. However, even in Kunark with MOTM2, don't expect to top parses. Monks continued to dominate the top of melee deeps on parses. Casters started doing better and beating us also. Come Velious, the weapons get better. If you're fortunate enough to score a Mrylokar's Dagger and/or Tunare Dagger for mainhand, the other as offhand, or something like a Vyemm Fang, or that Baton of Flame (both 13/17) for offhand, you'll be able to consistently make Top 10 parses. Load up on resists (specifically MR) and you'll top DPS on a few fights in NTOV (hi Lady Nev, Vyemm and sometimes Vulak). Monks continue to be top melee dps but well-equipped Rogues are finally starting to compete. Get all the +ATK stuff you can (dain belt, spirit wracked cord from kunark era, dozekar quest mask from east trials, etc). In general, a lot of your ability to perform at your peak is the raid leader's willingness to pair you up with an epic'd bard and your ability to obtain the necessary +ATK buffs (including avatar) from the right classes. Avatar, until Primal Avatar from ST, is a tough one. Long recast, reagent-based and a lot of demand for it. Building a good relationship with your local shaman will help you parse higher. Once Luclin hits, the weapons continue to get better, Khati Sha dagger (17 dmg) is best for stabs and the Ssra Temple ones (Khal and Bloodbath are excellent as well). There are more +ATK items to get. There's more min/maxing you can do. All of that helps you stay relevant in top 10 parses but there won't be many fights you top parses in. In VT, mini-AHR and AHR seem to be fights I did really well on until the rangers in our guild got geared. Rangers from this point forward will destroy meters. Smart Wizards/Mages will destroy meters. Monks will continue to dominate meters. You really need to be a min/maxer rogue to Parse Top 10 in Luclin. Gotta build a good relationship with your local Beastlord for Ferocity in Luclin. PoP's been fun... Most people are maxed on ATK now, I have a DoD / Coirnav Hammer combo and I can compete on most fights. Many fights I can top parses. Rangers who trueshot, Monks with their new disc on a 3rd offensive timer, will be strong competition. As usual, smart wizards/mages will contend for top parses. Most of the fights are too fast for necros to really be a top deeps factor. All in all, PoP has been the most fun expansion for rogue. Shroud of Stealth is amazing. I like the disc rotations we have (albeit on 2 timers). It would be nice to have poisons back but even without them I contribute end-game deeps in groups and I don't feel like I'm a third wheel. Ultimately, if I played on Agnarr, knowing it stops in PoP, I'd probably go Monk this time around. I enjoy competing for top parse. While things get really good for rogues in PoP, the journey to get there is frustrating. Like I said earlier, it's a real labor of love. If you love the idea of what a rogue is, then play one. I've enjoyed the hell out of the class. Stealth is a lot of fun. Shroud of Stealth later in PoP is amazing. It's fun trying to get places you have no business going with sneak/hide. However, if you want to contribute best to raids, and you like dps, then Monk will be more fun to play earlier in the game. Rangers are another dps class that for a pop-locked server would be a ton of fun to play. You just have to weather through Classic->Velious until Luclin arrives to really become a big dps factor. All this is one veteran rogue's perspective. Hope some of this was helpful.
This might be the most well thought out, helpful post I've seen on any mmo official forums in a decade. I'm not a rogue on phinny (I'm a bard) but I feel like good, positive, helpful posts should be called out regardless. EQ is a community game after all and phinny is a community in itself. Discodave of Phinigel
Speaking as someone who has always mained a ranger even back in the day when they were the joke of eq, I can tell you it makes a massive difference on how you play it for the DPS return. It drives me crazy to be in a group and see someone who does not know how to play a ranger playing it wrong.
Rogues are fine from Velious onward. It all sort of depends on fight length, as we do better in slightly longer fights when we can get a kine or two before Duelist. Luclin we do very well once we get a Bane weapon for VT. PoP, it seems like once we get our BiS gear, we can easily compete with Monks, and are quite far ahead of everyone else, aside from the occasional ranger with a very good Trueshot. /GU Cazic-Thule in 246s, 1967k @7997sdps --- #1 Glowerss + pets 164k@680 sdps /GU Bertoxxulous in 210s, 1967k @9369sdps --- #1 Glowerss + pets 134k@656 sdps Those are back to back fights with minimal downtime between them (no time for discs to refresh). If there are other classes parsing higher than us ATM, it isn't by much if at all. I've also had absolutely no problems finding exp groups. Kunark and beyond, raid geared rogues put out some pretty incredible sustain DPS, only surpassed really by charm pets and equaled by monks. If you don't plan on doing any raiding though, I definitely wouldn't recommend a rogue, as we are extremely gear reliant.
i agree, I've grouped a number of times with non tracking people telling me where to go to get mobs that just popped. It's widespread cheating imo
Are there mechanics in place on TLP that weren't in place in real classic? Or are people just trolling? Rogues are a little lost to begin with, but with double bs at 55 and then epic we should really pull ahead of most other classes in most situations dps wise. Even as Kunark and Velious progress, some decent damage piercers should trickle down for those late to the game. I can see wizards outdamaging us on short fights, and since necro DoT's stack I can see them outdamaging us on Velious raids now. But if you're hasted and atk buffed and mashing your BS and evading and staying behind the mob then you'll have pretty solid DPS. Also those Velious raid mob were very very resistant, in Luclin they had higher ac so that did balance things a bit, but in VT we were getting more atk, so that helped. You will be best off in a raid guild... doesn't have to be a full time raid guild, but yes a current mid teir poker at least and a few atk items will help you get the most dps, so there is some gear dependency; it should be said that at this point in the game mana was a little more precious, so even casters are more gear dependant then most recognize. If you look at the dps of a single fight you might get very different figures than if you looked at the dps for a 6 hour (or 2 day!) raid, or a several hour camp. You can spot mobs, a tracker can do it better but you can out dps trackers. You can drag corpses, a necro can summon them but you can out dps necros in many situations (and coffins are expensive). You're a go between for CoH, a druid or wizard can do it better but you can out dps a druid. You can pick locks, this is actually pretty important in classic and Kunark, and then a little in Luclin. Learn how to use hide and sneak (I've been asked many times over the years how I managed to sneak past that see invis mob... = / Even in PoP we were solid, we might've had more monky to worry about, but we shouldn't even be talking about rangers yet. So, sorry, I just like my rogue and those first few expansions were really our glory days, so I'm not sure what other folks are doing with their rogues but: back in the day the only reason it could be hard to find a group as a rogue is because it was no secret how kickass we were, so everyone and I mean *everyone* had a rogue alt. Anyone remember the monk, rogue, rogue, rogue, rogue, cleric groups? You slowed with a locustlure, and mobs died fast. That is all. -Mindra Skylarker of the Iksarian Broods, Bertoxx.
Agreed. Good post, Rovell, much appreciated. So, what would you and all the other Rogue vets suggest to balance the class (assuming the devs actually helped balance it) for a PoP/LDoN-locked era or before this (such as Agnarr)? Is it poison-making's complete uselessness that could help if fixed? (i.e. either buff poisons, or turn them into self-buffs lasting X minutes so we don't have to constantly re-apply?) Is it the lack of Assassinate since it got moved from a base ability to an AA that's later than when Rangers get Headshot? If this were moved in-line with Headshot and granted with PoP, would that do it? Would additional ranks of Chaotic Stab sooner help things? Just curious what could be done to bring the Rogue in line, and whether or not a new post or sticky should be made?
Mechanics are different. Monks get out of era fists and disciplines and all things being equal will beat a rogue in every era Agnarr will see. Rangers in Luclin and PoP are easy mode dps that will also beat a rogue regularly. Spells were buffed in a way that melee wasn't. It's not classic. Rogues suffer. They aren't awful, but they aren't rock stars either.
Lots of things could help, but of the things that are potentially possible (and won't impact live) - - Bump Rogue melee dmg % AA (Innate Duelist) - all melee but monk really need to have lvl 1-50 aa of this line bumped to lvl 60 amount immediately for classic, and Rogues prolly need a solid 5-10% bump. I wouldn't increase latter ranks until we get there and see how things are. - Poisons - Scale down new poison system for older content - Dmg aug - Rog-only, 1dmg/bs type 7/8 on proc vendor in Freeport in classic I don't see any TLP class balance actually happening unless it's by trickle down from live. Simply put, once they open up this can of worms (ie balancing classes on TLP), it becomes quite a headache. They appear to have enough trouble keeping things balanced on live, let alone new expansions every 2-3 months.
I know when my wife and are duoing the Enc/Dru we will invite only rogues to join at those times we can. One or two in particular we are going to keep an eye out for in LFG. No virtue or charity on our part just helping out folks that need a bit and that always pays off in the long run. Yall do as you please but damn helping people is also playing the game well.
