I have a trio group that is always together on Phinigel, SK, Bard, and Rogue. The Rogue puts out decent to exceptional DPS. The most important part, he LOVES playing a Rogue. Do what you want, be the best you can be. If a Monk can out DPS you by a bit, so be it ... who really cares? You are still contributing to a group and anyone that denies you for your class choice is not worth grouping with. Avoid the headache, their are plenty of people to group with on these TLP servers. One thing i've seen him do that gets him into groups very quickly is assist other groups. Find the camp you want, talk to the group there and tell them you will help kill mobs under 50% health as an out of group DPS until a spot opens up. This will get you a positive reputation and ensure you get the camps you want. Standing around in PoK spamming general chat every couple minutes does not work. If this is the only way you LFG, than I suggest you play a healer.
It would be so easy to fix rogues for a TLP. 1. Double backstab damage 2. Snare poison at level 5 An attack that requires position, on a class with very little utility, should do a lot of freaking damage. Sadly, the "class budget" on a rogue, just doesn't add up. They really need a lot more damage, or a couple major utility buffs.
I started as a Druid, but switched to a Rogue main during Classic, then played him in Kunark from about level 30. His original run ended at level 59 sometime during LDoN when I started using an SK as my main. That was mostly for soloing reasons, I've always loved the Rogue as a group class, and not just because it can't be anything else. Damage wise I never felt underpowered. People were always happy when I joined the group and stuff died faster. Pre-Epics, my damage was better than a monk. I think the Backstabs and actual weapon damage made the difference. Weapon options weren't great, but that went for every class. I had the same Ykesha in my off hand that everybody else had in one or more of their hands. I had the FBSS, not everybody did. During this era I felt like I was the DPS showing up to kill things fast when otherwise only more bodies and more mana could accomplish that feat. When Epics showed up, then the disparity started. A rogue without a Ragebringer was at a disadvantage DPSwise, even if the other classes didn't have their epics. There just weren't a lot of good dropped Rogue weapons during that time. That would have been during Kunark. With each expansion things got a little better. Rogue's have a bad rep related to raiding, but in Classic through at least Luclin they were very important. Plane of Hate scouting was critical back when one false move could wipe a whole raid. Remember in these days invis was very unreliable, it could drop with no warning. I didn't do a ton of raiding but I've done a lot of corpse dragging for raids, whether I was on them or not. That was our role. So let's be honest here. Can you have fun playing a Rogue? Yes, of course, I did and so did many others. Can you solo (in classic gear)? Past level 20, not really, at least not effectively, possibly not even as far as level 20. Will you have to wait for groups? I don't think most people will care if you are a Rogue or anything else if they need another body in the group for damage. But realistically you won't be first choice in a lot of situations, and possibly not the second choice either. This is what gets people right here, Rogue's probably aren't for the casual player who has to make the most of their time and who feel like they are wasting time sitting LFG not knowing if they will get a group until it actually happens. I've done it, I've been there. I wasn't casual when I started the class so it wasn't a huge deal, but later when I got married and my life changed, then it mattered, hence the SK. What can be done about this? Get to know people, make friends. As somebody said above, you may have to put in the effort to make your own groups. The thing that killed me was the guy who said his guild didn't allow Rogues on the raiding side or whatever. Do not join a guild like that, if raiding is most important to you then you have to make the call whether the class or the guild is more important to you. Nobody ever turned me down for a raid due to my class. Good players want other good players around them, your class choice doesn't make you a good player or not. Know your class, be useful, people will appreciate that. I will be on Agnarr, probably playing a Paladin, yet another class people tend to shun for reasons that aren't that big of a deal. I don't care what class someone is, past the necessities. I can tank, somebody has to heal. If we have CC great, if not, DPS, DPS, DPS. When I'm solo, adding a Rogue makes a great partner. They can stay hidden until they need to start attacking, they can reduce aggro with Evade, they can scout. They can drag our corpses when we blow it and wipe. I will definitely be grouping with Rogues, I will be making friends and we will be having fun together.
Lets not kid ourselves. People use third party programs to track zones. Giving rouges track would not make them more desirable to groups or guilds. Rogues need additional DPS. The easiest solution is a revamp to poisons.
Not sure, but monks and warriors and the like sure do have an easier time finding mobs than my ranger at times.
I played rogue on Phinny from launch. Yes, at the start it's a bit of an uphill struggle to get your dps going, but for me it worked out lvl 20+. I was using dps tracking during raids and pushing my dps I can say I was always near the top in dps. My gear was full hate planar and wielding weapons like burning rapier, eyerazzia and the like. So I'd say, talk about rogues being worthless are a little bit exaggerated. And I got to say, it's fun being able to sneak everywhere undetected. On launch as a rogue, I can't stress enough though, don't sit around waiting for invites .. make your own group! Too many people in threads like these downplay rogue dps too much to the point it seems as if rogues are total crap. I can tell you from experience we are not. Still a lot of people have that misconception and you might not be first choice for an invite because of it. So make your own group, take the lead. If people leave, actively look for replacements and keep the group going. Show them what rogues can do!
I thought you were pulling my chain at first. It's common knowledge that there are programs out there that show you where every mob is in the zone and they are frequently used on all servers. Back on topic: Rogues need more DPS. Seems a revamp to poisons could up their DPS without changing game mechanics. Will the devs look into class balancing in this era now that there is a time locked server?
I guess I'm just struggling to see where they went off the rails. In Kunark and Velious, they were top melee dps, hands down. They weren't the best soloers, but they *could* solo using lifetap weapons (Blood Points), snares (SBD or Obtenebrate short sword), slow (Locustlure, Wavecrasher), Intimidate. Especially in modern EQ with stuff like distillates of healing, and out of era weapons (i.e. rabid chokidai fang), I can't see them doing *horrible* soloing. Still not the best, but doable I'm sure. Granted, in Luclin and on they started to lose to some other classes, but let's face it, Archery Mastery 3 + Endless Quiver is crazy overpowered. But they could still hold their own, and had fun. Backstab mod weapons just made BSs that much better, and some newer stuff to lockpick meant they still had some usefulness. So what changed in PoP that made them so horrible?! Part of me thinks this is just a silly stereotype in the same manner as "Rangers suck" back in Classic that took a LONG time for people to get over.
It's not a stereotype, just look at the parses. They don't have much to offer than DPS and their DPS is garbage.
OP is mostly talking about groups. Granted I wasn't uber power gamer, but I don't recall playing with a group that needed a DPS spot filled but would turn down a rogue in order to wait for some other DPS class.
Rogues are still better dps than the wizard I had in my LDON last night using Lure of Lightning on tashed trash mobs despite being told several times by an 18 year wizard vet not to use the lure spells on tashed trash, so I guess they have that going for them. Rogue is kind of a stupid-proof class I suppose.
Rogues are a litmus test. If a player doesn't want one in your group because you don't top their favorite DPS parse they are fair game for your ignore list!
I'd recommend not playing a rogue unless you really really want to play one for some reason. There's classes who do what you do better with more abilities and features, play one of them and be better off for it.
Daybreak Games made rogues ! They removed the glitches to get through locked doors, come Kunark I imagine most groups will want a rogue for pick lock alone when dungeon crawling.
Anyone have a link to anywhere I can see said parses? I'm not trying to prove or disprove you, I'm just genuinely interested in seeing the numbers for modern-ish TLP raids.
They aren't allowed on Phinigel and won't be allowed on Agnarr. The pre-compiled distributions have code that disable them on Phinny. That isn't to say you can't figure out a way to make them work (I've seen people using them) but it's a bannable offense on Phinny. On Live servers DBG looks the other way. On True-Box servers they do not.
You're being naive if you believe they aren't being used extensively on Phinigel. I have even been in a pickup group where a non tracking class has stated a named (a few rooms away) has just popped. I have never used any sort of third party software, but from what I've heard about it, if you're just using the mob tracking side of it, there's no way it can be detected anyway.
From what I've seen raiding on Ragefire and Phinny, you are talking 5-10% differences between the various melee dps classes. And the differences depend more on player dedication, the fight and the gear than on the class. You also have to take into account that no raiding guild of experience has any real issues taking down classic raid targets if their dps crew has 10 Rogues or 10 Monks or 10 Rangers. It's an esoteric debate at best. The Rogue skeptics in this thread take the approach that if you are melee dps and are not at the top of the list all the time you are useless. Of course, by that logic giving Rogues a substantial boost would make the other melee classes useless, so it's a losing game no matter how you play it!
