One particular Warrior is pushing ideas that impact your classes. Let me clearly state that these are NOT my ideas (I think they are terribad, for more than just Warriors) but I invite you into defend yourselves on this
how does this impact knights exactly? it's a stupid idea that is basically impossible to code within EQ, and even if it could be (or would be) done, the logical end-point here is that everyone gets to do more dps?
Similar DPS if you tank, less DPS if not tanking. Less agro, less DPS if you use 2H instead of shield.
apparently some people seem to have this convoluted idea that warrior dps with 2h/dw should only be situationally better than 1h and shield dps. i dont understand it myself. i really dont think any knights would ever disagree that 2h should always outdps sword and board, wether tanking or not.
It is only one person who thinks that, when tanking, sword and board dps should do more than 2 handed or duel wield. We all know who this person is and we all know he is incorrect. We also all know he will continue to flood any post on the subject with the same rhetoric. As far as the hate mod goes, who cares what item it is on? He appears to be the only tank in the world who actually needs it to hold agro.
I can use both my hands when attacking with a 2hander, why would I do less damage compared to using only 1 hand while also having to hold a shield in my other hand? No seriously, it doesn't even make sense.
A couple of Warriors are so enamored of pretending they are Rangers that they think our DPS setups are for tanking. If I am getting hit (S&B is for tanking. DW is for DPS) I'm entitled to weaponshield (in the case of Warriors, Furious), ripo, and damage shield damage I am not entitled to when I am DPSing with a 2Hander or DWing. It doesn't take a lot of mobs self-destructing to exceed the damage produced by hitting one mob with another player tanking it (DPSing). So you're wrong. I regularly exceeded my DW or 2H raid burn DPS when tanking larger quantites of mob using S&B (in those 6 months or so of the last 36 when I wasn't at maxAA). I understand perfectly well that a class that's not forced by circumstance to use a 1Hander with a DMG/DLY designed to be used two at a time by Bards, Rogues, and Rangers but instead has long received shield appropriate weapons might not sympathize with their tanking competition. You would not like our 1Handers for use with a shield believe me. Not even if the ratio remained the same and DMG was adjusted to reflect a longer DLY. I understand classes whose total class power includes a spellbook with outside of the Tank Archetype abilities is not impacted as much by lower S&B damage. Set Warrior, Paladin, and SK melee DPS to 0. Who comes out on top? Not Warriors. We are affected more by S&B damage reduction. (These arguments and dozens of other were made publicly for 6 months priors to SS going into the game. Guess which set of arguments is more persuasive. I don't have to guess. Naubi did not have and Drenath does not have anything resembling a rational argument). Shiftee, a Paladin, once posted - if you (a Paladin poster) are not using S&B you aren't tanking enough mobs [to which I add, or hard enough mobs]. Most of us know shields are for tanking. I see knights and Warriors taking on current group and/or raid content every day. Tanks use shields. Some Warriors would like shield benefits or offhand parry when we aren't using shields. They'd like to return to DW 24/7. Weilding a mainhander designed to be used two at a time with a shield was wrong for knights and it was wrong for Warriors. You might not like competing with Warriors for shields,. You might have liked it when you got the benefits of Shield AC not being subject to the softcap and Shield Block and Warriors almost never did. BUT, I know it was wrong, other than a very few knights who'd say anything to retain an advantage y'all know it was wrong, and most importantly SOE knows it was wrong. Do you want to see most knights tanking with S&B while most or many Warriors are tanking with DW, not taking any serious additional survival risk, and doing DW DPS? Do you really think what you use to tank should not matter (but what you use to DPS should)? Or do you think there are roles and the proper tools to perform them and that there should be rough parity for all three of the classes in the Tank Archetype?
I agree that s&b is for tanking and that 2h and dw is for dps. However, I disagree that s&b should do more dps when tanking. I think s&b should always produce less dps than both 2h and dw. S&b, by virtue of having a shield is a defensive setup. It makes no sense for a defensive setup to exceed or even match a setup that allows for damage with both hands, or 1 heavy weapon regardless of the situation.
There are not always more mobs, or harder mobs easily available. In this situation a Knight has the option to switch to 2H and deliver more DPS if they prefer. Seems like a good choice to me. Why do you (Battleshield, not Shiftee) want to eliminate this choice and guarantee S+B does more DPS than 2H while tanking?
I am going to disagree. Let's start by establishing a rough baseline. Numbers used will not be actual seen numbers but only to show relationships between setups. Example baseline tank DPS at 100 whereas melee character (monk, rogue etc) DPS baseline at 150. I may be generous giving tanks 2/3rds the DPS of a melee but 2/3rds seems fair to me. Also riposte damage may not be as much of a factor as I portray but is it still a very large chunk of tank DPS while tanking. 2 warriors both group geared and AAed the same with the only difference being warrior 1 (SBWar) is holding a 1h and shield and warrior 2 (DWWar) is using 2 1h weapons. 1 healer and no other players in group. SBWar is tanking. He will be the baseline of DPS and DEF. Pull one typical melee mob. SBWar is at 100 DPS 100 DEF. Probably 70 of his DPS is actual weapon damage where he is getting through the mobs defense and hitting it. He is forced to go through all of the mobs defense mechanics including the mobs ability to riposte. 25 of his DPS is via riposte and DS and the other 5 via bash. A HoT and maybe a top off heal at the end is probably all SBWar will need. DWWar behind the mob is at 125 DPS 85 DEF. DEF isn't really an issue for him because he is not tanking. His only mechanic for DPS is weapon damage on the mob. Also the mob's defense is weakest from the back, no mob riposte to worry about as an example. So group DPS 225 Now pull two mobs and SBWar tanks both together. SBWar is at 100 DPS on mob 1 and getting an additional 25 DPS on mob 2 just from ripostes and DS. DEF will drop a bit so probably at 90 DEF with two mobs. So total 125 DPS 90 DEF. 2 HoTs and a top off for healing. DWWar still doing 125 DPS 85 DEF because he can only hit one mob at a time. Group DPS 250 for some of the fight then dropping to 225 when 1st mob dies. Pull 3 mobs now with SBWar tanking all 3 at once. SBWar 100 DPS mob 1, 25 DPS mob 2 and 25 DPS mob 3. For a total of 150 DPS and DEF of 75. Probably 2 HoTs a mid-fight heal and a top off heal. DWWar still chugging along at 125 DPS on one mob at a time. Top group DPS 275, then 250 then 225. SBWar is out DPSing the DWWar for a big chunk of that last fight. Now switch roles and let DWWar tank. Pull one mob. DWWar is now doing about 100 DPS via swings because dealing with 100% of the mobs defenses now. He will pick up some riposte DPS for a total of maybe 110 DPS. Riposte is not as effective in DW which could be why people are asking to buff off hand parry. The healing will probably be similar to when SBWar tanked one mob. SO DWWar is doing a little more DPS while tanking compared to SBWar but the DPS when he was not tanking was better. SBWar behind the mob is raising his weapon DPS a bit since less mob defense to deal with so probably about 80 DPS now. He looses all riposte/DS DPS since the mob is not hitting him. Can still bash though so about 85 DPS total. But clearly this is not playing the SBWar to his potential since with a weapon switch he could gain almost 50% more DPS in a strictly melee DPS role. (85 vs 125) Group DPS 195 compared to the 225 DPS possible. Why your group? Now pull 2 mobs and let DWWar tank them. DWWar now doing 120 DPS and has around 75 DEF. SBWar still doing the 85 DPS because he really likes that shield. Group DPS 205 when it could have been 250 for over 1/2 the fight. Plus as DEF of tank drops healing becomes more of a concern. Can it be done this way, sure. But again why your group? Be willing to wear the right gear for your role to maximize your groups potential. If that means using a shield while tanking then buck up and do it. If that means grabbing two 1h weapons or a 2hb while someone else tanks to maximize your DPS then be willing to do that. If a warrior in a melee DPS role(DW/2H and behind the mob) can't out DPS a tank on ONE mob then yeah something is broken. But a warrior in a melee DPS role(DW/2H and behind the mob) should not expect to out DPS the tank when that tank is getting ripostes and DS damage on 3 mobs at once while the melee warrior is only hitting one mob..
In reality what they are pushing for should impact their class and their class alone, especially since all of this stems from a thread specifically regarding warriors dual wielding. The only reason we get dragged into every warrior discussion is because they are incapable of not bringing up "knights" or "SKs" in threads about their own class. Warriors wanting to argue changes to their offensive/defensive setups should leave it solely to the warrior class and drop the 'all tanks' or 'knights too' BS that always happens. Knights use 1H/shield for tanking content that deems it necessary. Knights use a 2H for tanking content that has less of a chance of killing us. Knights put out less dps when using 1H/shield and more dps when using a 2Her. This is how things are for us because it is logical. Whatever warriors want their setups to do is completely and absolutely irrelevant to the knight class so keep us out of it when you're pushing for potential changes to the warrior class. This whole, "BUT KNIGHTS ...!" nonsense is getting old. Knights don't sit around pondering ways to have warriors changed but we are not afforded the same courtesy. Arguing the merits of weapon setups for warriors should affect no one but warriors in the event anything was ever changed. As an aside, hypothetically if knights were to have dual wield it would be more of a dps role and not for tanking challenging content in lieu of sword & board but that's moot anyway since it would never happen.
Please do not associate warriors with Battleaxe/Battleblade. He and he alone is pushing for the wide-ranging nerfs not only to all tanks (wars included) but to all melee dps as well, none of his "arguments" and "views" should be considered that of the warrior class -- they are but delusional ramblings. The rest of us are fully capable of discussing things that are relevant to our class and only our class.
Damage shield damage should not be considered the warriors damage contribution except for clickie DS and gear additions. When a mob hits me, that 4-5k dmg shield it eats is the product of bard songs, Mage long Buff, and mage short DS (counter limited). If you didn't cast it on yourself, that damage didn't really 'belong' to you. Damage shield damage, unless those buffs and that damage is actively created by the tank, is not relevant to this conversation. A warrior not tanking should do more damage than a warrior tanking. Dual wield and 2handers should always produce more dps.
You sir, are absolutely correct. That is also logical for warriors as well but not the case. If BB gets his way warriors will continue to do less dps in there dps weapon set up and the other l tank classes will do less dps in those set ups as well. I understand knights rolling their eyes as you feel warriors are pulling you into their class issues but this is an archetype issue. You will be effected.
Except I do far more damage with 1h/shield than 2hs when tanking. Factoring in the fact that I can tank more mobs using sword and board, I riposte more often, and then with Holy Guardian and DPS abilities I can take on entire zones in HoT. Can't do anything nearly as good with a two-hander. Valorous Rage, Pureforge, Blessing of the Faithful, and other stuffs = 35k crippling blows one after another against more mobs than I can count. Two-hander means no self-heals, so a huge reduction in mob density and difficulty. The only time I find myself switching to a two-handed weapon is when the raid target is the only target to attack, and I'm not tanking.
Yes, the per target damage output is more than a little bit higher with a knight using a 2hander compared to a 1hander. As far as sk swarming goes, using a "same tier" 1hander/shield combination is preferable against content that is close to your threshold of being able to kill. Your damage per riposte is lower, but with shield block and the raw ac from your shield, it decreases incoming damage a lot more than it decreases outgoing damage (and thus incoming heals). With the kind of mass pulling involved with swarming, it's a simple concept for sks. If your outgoing damage (and subsequent incoming heals) is greater than your incoming damage, you win. If your incoming damage is greater (even by just a little bit) than your outgoing damage (incoming heals) ... you lose. Making up some numbers to show the advantage of shields in swarms. Scenario 1: Outgoing riposte damage using a 2hander is 120k dps (84k heals per second incoming) Outgoing riposte damage using 1hander/shield is 100k dps (70k heals per second incoming) Incoming mob damage using a 2hander is 60k dps Incoming mob damage using a shield is 46.8k dps (22% less damage) Scenario 2: Outgoing riposte damage using a 2hander is 120k dps (84k heals per second incoming) Outgoing riposte damage using 1hander/shield is 100k dps (70k heals per second incoming) Incoming mob damage using a 2hander is 88k dps Incoming mob damage using a shield is 68.6k dps (22% less damage) In scenario 1, either weapon configuration works but a 2hander is preferable as you kill the swarm 20% faster. Sword and board still works fine, but the 2hander is preferable. In scenario 2, you'll die eventually with a 2hander, and can survive indefinitely with the shield. The situation Uxtalzon is describing falls into scenario 2 I'd wager - though I have no experience personally with paladin swarming. On my group geared SK, I expect about 20-25% more damage using a same tier 2hander. I imagine it'd be about the same difference with raid level weapons (same tier).
no you don't - unless your 2h is of a significantly lower tier than your 1h, and/or you lack 2h AAs, in which case that's circumstantial to you personally and not relevant to the class itself. what does that have to do with your damage output? that's definitely an issue of sustainability, so i suppose you could argue it factors in to your sustained DPS if you can keep it going longer, but it has nothing to do with your rolling DPS output. no you don't - riposte is a skill check, its fire rate has nothing to do with your weapon speed. and that very well may be for you specifically, but that is not true of the class in general under equal circumstances (same relative AAs supporting both 1h and 2h, same tier of weapon).
