While mass killing abilities and flavor of the month/year whatever classes do come and go, let's also not forget that population wise there's still lots more groupers than raiders. So it's not all that surprising that the more powerful group classes would be more represented in the general population. It's just that at this point given the content we get now, many of the group level advantages that were previously impactful aren't anymore. Ideas for utility: -revamp T'vyl's by making it last 3-5 minutes on a 9-15m recast. Lower the mod down to compensate, say make it 10% instead of the current 30. This way a few sks in a raid could coordinate and sustain it, and add to overall raid dps in a significant way, without it becoming too strong in the group game. -expand the cascading theft of life / defense lines for the rest of the group to add some additionally group healing in AE heavier raids -revamp reflexive to share a timer with gashing blade, which would do overall less dps than gashing but have a similar reuse timer, so in a raid setting we'd have a reason to use it for extra healing -(yes it's dps) add a swift group lifetap dot, longish recast and high mana cost -add a consolidated "unity" type stat tap. Including aura of darkness type resist debuff and attack/ac -add a unity type buff for drape/shroud/horror just because!
Cascading theft of life is a group heal already btw. Group recourse on cascading theft of defense would be pretty elite tho. Although that's melee only? 100% vie.
Yeah - with theft of life mainly meant beef up the proc rate or heal amount to be a little more impactful. Defense would be a bit more unique and probably a better choice. Just trying to suggest some reasonable options.
SKs were and remain an extremely popular class, like rangers, due to their versatility, variety in gameplay, independence in getting around, etc. Especially they're popular as tanks compared to warriors due to that independence thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm a devotee of the warrior class, and I've built up all the tricks & things over the decades, but the actual abilities while remaining a legit tank to invis yourself, snare things, and solo anything ever in your career (even things low level to you) is understandably attractive to folks. Swarming was a relatively advanced technique that relatively few players ever engaged with. SKs are fun to broad swathes of EQers, which - I know - may be a controversial idea to bring into a woe-is-me and slap-in-the-face style thread, but no further excuses need to be sought for why SKs are played. There is a corollary to observe, though, in that the classes folks pick for fun abilities or because leather jackets & black horses-rawr tend to accumulate those who aren't playing for per se power. Sucko rangers and druids and beastlords proliferate, and according to you guys (I don't group with, or evaluate the apps of, many) so do sucko SKs.
I hear ya I-WANT-IT-NOW! The way mobs damage is just insane. A single add can be deadly if not CC'd before in camp. Off tanking in group content by tanks is pretty difficult let alone any of the other classes. I was playing in AC the other day and had a runner. By the time that I had killed the runner, I had five mobs in camp. Even with that number of adds, the cleric was able to cast at least three group heals and a few HOTs before wiping. There was so much response time. Currently, how long would a group have to react? How long would it take to wipe?....seconds?....less... My thoughts, Rykard
give us a group buff that increases attack rating (or bolsters dmg in some way, like a modern day 'theft of hate') and have it also allow the group to heal 5% (or something) of melee damage inflicted. then maybe we can be tossed into melee dps groups if there's a saturation of sk.
Was doing DH2 a few weeks ago. We just pulled all the 3 minis and the boss in at the same time cause, why wait? I had stacked the group in my favor to try to make the point that knights can still do strong dps when given strong support. Took our best shaman, bard and chanter. Wouldnt ya know, the first royal undead mob that spawned on incoming I ended up getting the KS and it triggered BotF. Ended up a 240k burn parse on Larenzo in like 70 seconds or something. O face for sure.
I find it extremely dissatisfying when a warrior dies and I get one rounded by a boss when I'm rockin 195k hps and up to 16k plus ac on raids. How does that make sense? SKs are just as useful as paladins on raids in the tanking roles. If you dont get one rounded like I mentioned above, you pop your deflection. Take advantage of the time to get the warrior rezzed, throw on some additional mitigation type abilities and stare at the combat window waiting for your deflection to drop so you can hit the 35% disc, and communicate with your healers so they are ready to take the spike when deflection drops. I know there are no knights in any guild that have enough hp to take a full round of pretty much any of the Arx Mentis raid bosses that either double for 100K+, triple for 75k+ or quad for 65k+. It just aint happenin, if you arent defensive, you arent gonna last long once your luck runs dry and the full round hits. As far as utility, I think all sks are missing is some extended aa to double the time on Tvyls, and some hasted aa to cut the recast down. I would be surprised if they dont have those aa on the next round of aa, whether it be next expansion or sooner. Ive thought for years that every class should have an aura, Sks could be something that makes them add some minor amount of dps to the group or something, but like most of the aura's it would need to be minor. Either way, SK epic is still the most overpowered epic in history and if that isnt enough to satisfy I suppose nothing is. Really though, SKs should be a selfish class, they shouldnt be providing buffs or benefits to their groups, cause that just doesnt make sense for the role of an SK.
I'm curious about this, atm I'm bringing up a war/pal/sk and am looking to just do group content. I'm curious how you feel the 3 tanks compare/feel in the group game. Is there one you favor for the group game? Curious as how you feel the "beefiness" compared from sk and a paladin are, they're ability to self heal, they're usefulness to a group etc etc. Is there one you prefer for high-end grouping content? Harder stuff in TDS etc. I'm curious as to any light you can shed on it, as I'm still unsure of what tank to stick with, while they're still coming into their own and don't have all their bells and whistles I'd like to hear your opinion/thoughts on the 3 tanks in the group game from someone who has one of each tank type in group gear that plays in the group game.
For me, they all have a good deal of usefulness in certain situations. For instance, if you have no CC and are doing content you've outgeared slightly... hands down the SK is best. He can pull, he can aggro multiples like no one else, and he will have no problem lifetapping to make up for any mitigation loss. Paladin is superb if he knows his heals, splashes, etc. If he's on top of that, he can make up for any lack of heals you have in your group. If your using a cleric merc, and just want that extra umph, there it is. For sheer tanking power though? The warrior out tanks both of them easily, with less work. The warrior will tank harder content with less work, and once he's over geared it, will be able to tank more mobs at a time. When I'm doing Arx Mentis for instance, the sk and paladin take some huge spikes. Sure they've got taps to make up for it, but if I pull 2 or 3 and don't mez them fast enough? Both of these in group gear are gonna go down. They can tank them if I blow a disc and set on top of heals, but as a boxer? I prefer to be doing the CC while the tank wades through them. The warrior? He just wades in and handles them. It can be spikey with 2, and occasionally three will rip through him. But rarely do I end up having to rez him. His gear btw, is less than either of my other two. For me as a lazy boxer, the warrior is hands down my choice. I push less buttons. The discs that I do end up using refresh faster. I am ready for a named even if they spawn back to back. etc.
If the mobs are not immune to stun and within the +3 level requirement, paladin is by far the best group tank when it comes to survivability if you can pull singles. If you start getting multiples that have to be tanked, it breaks down fast for a paladin. Paladin stuns are fast, but when you have 3 or 4 mobs on you then the chances are pretty good that you are going to get interrupted often. If youre smart with a group paladin, you need to choose targets that are undead and you can stun, otherwise the dps is going to be dreadful. SKs have the benefit of being able to tank several mobs at once, and actually keep agro but they are going to be taking by far the most dmg because they do not stun, and knight defensive discs are far inferior to warriors. In theory sks should be able to lifetap a ton of those hps back... SKs should have the best DPS potential of the 3 in the group game unless your paladin gets really good at killing undead. Warrior would seem to be the best all around option for a group tank right now with the state of their discs versus knights. I cant remember any time in the last 5 years that warriors have been this powerful. So it bears reminding that for many many years, a group warrior was pretty unwanted, and who knows if that time will come again? Ultimately, these questions always amount to the same thing. You gotta decide which class is most appealing based on hybrid or pure melee, and what your personal preference is when choosing a tank. If you try to pick a tank class that is very powerful right now, by the time you get it gear and AA'd up, the flavor of the year may have flipped and one of the other tank classes may be more powerful. Once you get experience with any of the tank classes, if you get good at it, you can thrive with any of them. If you are not cut out for being a tank, your high agro group mates or the healers will let ya know pretty often ;P
here how i see sk sk get hit hard to tank most raid high end names. Pally have Armor of the Inquisitor, war got Defensive prof, we have mortal coil!?!?. Our self healing is awesome, but when you got 5 other cleric trying to heal you and you just die something needs to change! we can kite!!!!!!
Based on current raiding content there has to be some changes. Simply put, the End mobs are just a tad too hard hitting for Anyone to really do much outside of warriors. Sure you can Tank in a pinch for a brief but but you will pretty much never get out of your defensive line prior to dying. Warriors are able to do it just based on the fact that they have the right tool set to get them thru it. I think we all struggle to look at each class as a whole and understand the network on raids / groups. I think that each class (Game wide) tends to know their own class very well, but not the others and can point out a larger number of perceived abilities that are lacking. The class as a whole has to be taken into account for balancing. Sk's are a but under tuned at the moment. From a Raid Leader Perspective on difficult events I only have Sk's there because of their skill, not the benefit they provide the raid. Other classes can do many of their roles sufficiently. Things I've disliked The Dev's created a majority of the issues with class blending. I've always hated that. Everyone can fade! A lot of people can Mezz? Etc. Sk's Used to be the best at agro. Harm Touch Used to matter. I see classes nuking for 1.1Million plus, and sustaining over 245k Things to add - Knights (not just Sk's) get a 6 second deflection, This stuff hits for 65+k we have 190k hp. - Allow our Casting mode to mean something. IE burns with it up should be 65-90k, if we swing have the effect drop off. - If Sk's need an ability to group heal (which I'm not to keen on) Give them an AA that changes their AE hate spells into Group Heal spells or something similar. So they can Switch modes. - Give the knights The Stances that warriors got. They are not overpowering, and they create some stability.
Some corrections: Bare minimum Deflection should last is 24 seconds if raid geared, and will generally last 30. While the proc rate may not be ideal or on demand, Sk's do get group heals via Cascading theft of life and the aa/spell bites. [4590] Deflection Discipline Classes: PAL/59 SHD/59 Skill: Block (Combat Skill) Endurance: 0, Upkeep: 50 per tick Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 40m, Timer: 3 Duration: 12s (2 ticks), Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: No 1: Shield Block (100) Text: You raise your shield to deflect incoming attacks.
Flash of Anger type ability Flash of Anger is a 4 min reuse for 6 sec of Increase Chance to Parry by 10000% , Deflection is a 20 min refresh. Would be great to have at the start of a fight, transition between tanks or that oh crap moment for heals to reach the Knight. As a Knight I could see it having a longer refresh than Warriors and added endurance to use.
Perhaps that was what the Repel line was supposed to be but the absorb cap falls short when dealing with raid mobs. Maybe the next version will be on a 4 minute refresh with 16 times the counters and damage cap vs the 15 second reuse.
