I generally dont like the concept of long cool downs on spells. And for dicho it doesnt make sense in some cases. Nec dicho for example only comes in 4 - 5th dps wise in most raid situations among the lvl 105 era spells. Do you mages ever use dicho raiding? I sometimes cast it just before engage and then forget about it. But it mostly feels like a spell slot waste.
Which is a shame because of all the dichos I think mage is the most interesting. The idea of turning your pet into a monster for a short period of time is way cooler than just a big DD / group buff (which is most of them). I think the only one that has as much soul is shaman's roar of the lion. It'll be disappointing if they upgrade dichos but don't attempt to upgrade the mage dicho to be more in line with other classes. It wouldn't even be that hard. I'm sure real mages could give better ideas but from my perspective they would just need to upgrade the duration from 12s to 30s and increase the proc rate from 200% to 400%. I personally think it would be even more interesting if they additionally tripled the buff and changed the cooldown to 3m instead of 1m so it's more of a dramatic increase that's used during a burn and not a thing you just cycle in your multi-bind. I don't want to kick off a class war because I don't think EQ balance is all that bad right now but you really have to go a long way with Dichotomic Companion before it's even on the balance radar. News of Dichotomic Rage being powerful is three years old now but, I mean, look at this :
Now I presume that if the spell dev cares, Dissident (née Dichotomic) Companion will get the obvious functionality update to rock a proc counter instead of a hit counter, and for its procs to have their deagro component replaced with a hate override. Ibliz's observation remains worthy, even so : the bar to clear on quality, even with that fix, is being worth a spell gem & cast time. The mana can kinda be tossed out by declaring you wait for a self or enc-gracious GoM to cast it, or dismissed as a concern in that players have a proven track record of going ahead regardless of cost if an effect is good. No matter how free, though, a pet HoT isn't itself worth cast time. If it were, Promised Alleviation would "be a thing" and it isn't. Some amount of damage must be able to do it, obviously, since that's what the cast time would otherwise go toward. Some narrow-use damage spells already are worth loose spell gems, so Dicho wouldn't have to be laser eye beams all the time, maybe, just better than some spells sometimes. Would it have to match a Servant's damage? Would it have to beat the expectation of a Chaotic? Since pet proc damage doesn't synergize in any way with discs, does it only have to beat spells that might otherwise be used in non-disc time (rains), or does it have to deal enough to fit in a burn linup to be a real spell?
Given the nature of Dichotomics and what I would assume to think would be their intention (the assumption being the dangerous thing, here), I would hope that dicho's would be somewhat signature in nature and as such merit them doing enough to fit in a burn lineup. I mean, they required a lot more progression than a normal spell, they should feel special/powerful... And now they're evolving again... Until they do, this is something you maybe hit before a fight starts and then never again (if you even bother in the first place)....
Dichotomic/Dissident Companion are fundamentally flawed in their design unfortunately. There's simply no way to increase main pet DPS in a way that is sufficiently useful in raids without being drastically overpowered in the group game. The fact that it doesn't scale at all with the ADPS frequently present in raids doesn't help, but the main issue is how much pets lag in raids. If pets are swinging at <1/2 the rate on raids (which they are), it's nigh impossible to create a balanced ability that is still potent there. There are a few solutions. The simplest tweak is to make it an Aura, a la Circle of Power. It would likely need tweaks to it's recast, mana cost, modifiers, etc. It could also lose the proc if that would create raid lag and scale too well with additional pets. Having something like this would actually be useful without being too insane since Swarm pets are still <20% of our DPS: [XXXXX] Dissident Companion 6 Classes: MAG/250 Skill: Abjuration Target: Pet Range: 300' Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Focusable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 6s 1: Aura Effect: Dichotomic Companion 6 Effect [XXXXX] Dissident Companion 6 Effect Classes: MAG/250 Target: Single Range: 300' Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Focusable: Yes Casting: 0s 1: Increase Hit Damage by 65% -> Adds 50% on top of Arcane Distillect 2: Increase Current HP by 10000 per tick -> Since this doesn't crit I don't think a 10k HoT is unreasonable, but it could be lowered further if need be. It could also be changed to something else that provides some reasonable defensives, especially from spell damage. 3: Add Melee Proc: Dichotomic Companion Strike 6 with 200% Rate Mod 10: Increase Base Stats by 200 Another option is to pretty significantly change the buff and make it self only, allowing it to utilize SPAs that change stats for all of your pets (including swarm pets). This would be my personal choice: [XXXXX] Dissident Companion 6 Classes: MAG/250 Skill: Abjuration Range: 300' Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Focusable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 6s Duration: 12s+ (2 ticks) Song, Dispelable: Yes 5: Increase Pet Chance to Critical Hit by 20% 6: Increase Pet Critical Hit Damage by 80% of Base Damage 7: Increase Pet Chance to Flurry by 10% 8: Increase Pet ATK by 500 I'd like to emphasize that none of the above numbers are tuned or anything, I just plugged in some random values. If it's particularly strong I'm fine with having it at a 5 minute recast like some of the melee dichos, or having it tuned down to stay at a one minute recast. I think it should be worth casting on cooldown, though. That means it should do more damage than our average cast on a raid with a decent amount of ADPS. Having a spell that does, for example, on average 20% more damage than our average spell cast that's usable once per minute hardly has any impact on overall damage, but it does give us something mildly interesting at least.
Curious where you get 150k damage. Are you just assuming 4 procs of the DD? You are aware it also increases pet melee DPS as well. And considering how many swings a pet can do in 12-18 seconds, I would think that amount has to be considered as well. I am not saying it is awesome. But I feel too many look strictly at the DD proc, assume 4 procs, and call it a day. It does do more than that...
I plan to post this in beta in a way that's a bit more visible, but if anyone is curious about why Dicho is bad or its damage contribution in raids, I'd recommend reading this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18YCwfx0SfOnUIRGKjvf0Am_i4f9-8IjSRuSoTenboNI/edit?usp=sharing
Honestly, They should make Dicho a DD or another Garg pet and call it. What should have happened is, give Mage pets the innate ability to proc Prism skin and remove that portion of the proc from Iceflame. Then make Iceflame what Dicho is now. Remove the proc limits and obviously lower the DMG to fall in line better with a 2 hour+ buff. That is if they want our pets to have a heal proc. Currently it doesn't stack fully with ADPS and it does not last long at all for having a 100 proc limit on it. You will be very lucky to hit 10 procs in that duration. Will continue to serve no purpose until they revamp it like they should have years ago.
Read the Dicho Manifesto. Awesome. Now we need to find out if Ngreth and Dzarn reads it. Or is it someone else? Aristo?
Ibliz, I see you gave credit there to Sancus on the ole "of many magic version" idea. Xinbann just sitting over here like, "don't mind me and all my magic spell recommendations" that I spear headed in the last Beta when I saw we were screwed over on the magic lineup.... At least they followed suit with a Meteoric Bolt upgrade. Sancus, Thanks for pulling that info out of the spell data. Also, we discussed Dicho DPS at length in this past year. The result was a raw 750k damage to raid targets. Cicelee is right that it is more than just the proc. It is a mini version of FBO to use between the AA cooldown and its quick cast time does not hurt overall DPS. The proc is nearly meaningless in the current version, but the normal hit damage and backstab damage is increased. It is not as strong as FBO, but it does bump it up enough to yield additional damage. If you're not casting it, you're leaving DPS on the table.... There is a reason the highest DPS mages in EQ are Xinbann and Ammeren… Now rib jabbing aside, can we discuss the EU nerf? Its not going to work on rains, correct? So the magic line up to use it with will be something like: Meteoric Bolt, Shock of Arc, Arc Malo? Upon testing DPS this seems as though it will be extremely crappy. Has anyone suggested that we ask for EU's timer to be extended to 3 minutes so that it matches Heart of Flames? We really needed an "of many" magic version...…How hard was it to make a spell like that and place it on a shared timer with the fire version...……. Xin
No, you concluded that. I withheld information about how pet damage is calculated because I found and continue to find your arrogance distasteful. You'd think the highest parsing Mage in EQ wouldn't need me to explain it to him, though You're welcome to read the document I posted, though. If you can wrap your head around the math, you'll find what I'm talking about.
Ok Sancus, First, the tongue face emoji and the "rib jabbing aside" comment meant that I was joking with you. I can see how you might miss the humor though. Second, I really don't care what you find distasteful. We just need to work collectively to promote positive change regardless of how we make competitive jokes with one another. Lastly, I read your goggle documents thingy. Here is the TL : DR version for everyone else: Sancus: This is all Theory. Here are some numbers I crunched. Here is some application. Here is how I theoretically line these ideas up. Dicho does add some damage but not enough (Sancus Claims approx: 250k). Dicho has other uses, but who cares on raids. Now to your smug comment... You didn't withhold anything from me that I didn't already know. Let me break it down Barney style. Its as easy as running the parser, seeing the damage without Dicho and then casting Dicho and seeing the increase. Here is an example: Put combat dummy to 3500 - 4k AC (we discussed this). See pet do base damage for 30 seconds (roughly 500k) Cast Dicho and see pet do damage for 30 seconds again (roughly 1.25 mil) Calculate the difference.... easy…. If you want to see more accurate sustained DPS numbers you can run it much longer since Dicho wont fall in the GH (which I did while talking with you) and then calculate the DPS breakdown . This can be easily multiplied by the amount of active time that Dicho will actually last... which yields the same results.... Like I said, Mages in Triton leave nothing on the table when it comes to DPS. Cheers, Xin
Hi Xinnban, I am quite clueless about a lot of stuff, sorry if I passed you over on street credit for Of Many. You say that you get 750k out of a dicho, I was wondering how you parsed that, or got to that number. Mage dicho has quite a low rep at the moment, so if you have some insight that you could share, that strenghtens the position of the “strong mage dicho hypothesis”, then that would be really nice and useful. I did read Sancus’ Dicho Manifesto, and the “weak mage dicho hypothesis” is currently a very strong position in the debate, based on the manifesto, and based on the current opinions that I read on these boards. It would be sad for Mages if our one chance for getting dicho fixed was ruined over a misunderstanding. Edit: you where on it I see
That's why your results are inaccurate. Like I repeatedly mentioned to you during the conversation, you were ignoring minimum hit damage modifiers and raid lag. Those aren't factors you can wave away, and they weren't accounted for in your testing. Dicho does fall in the guild hall because it has a hit counter limit. The parses you sent me ranged from 40 to 70 seconds, beyond being flawed for the above reasons. If you're using that methodology to determine which spells to cast, you are leaving DPS on the table.
Ibliz, Mage Dicho is by no means strong. However, I think the methods Sancus has applied fits a narrative of "worst case scenario". Some of the things he accounts for, such as raid lag, are variables that are intangible and inconsistent. He claims about 250k added damage, I claim that it can be as high as 750k added damage, and the truth will most likely fall somewhere in the middle because of the intangibles that are not quantifiable. In any case, If you could cast this spell at the end of you four cast weave, have it happen fast enough that you are able to quickly get back to spell one just as it refreshes, why would you not want to add 250k - 750k damage? IMO, this spell needs to be adding MILLIONS of damage and every proc should activate in the time that it's up. We should not be talking about the spells usefulness based on melee damage but rather on a massive amount of procs that should be happening. Xin PS: I used the guild dummy under conditions that Sancus himself suggested with a raid buffed pet...(to answer your question about where the DPS results came from).
I actually did the opposite in an attempt to avoid a discussion exactly like this. The numbers I provided as estimations did not include raid lag until I got to the section specifically devoted to raid lag. Furthermore, I went to great lengths to demonstrate it was not worth casting without accounting for minimum hit damage modifiers. The latter are not intangible or inconsistent; they're extremely easy to model. That you did not use them is simply a poor reflection on your testing methodology. I also responded to your argument about using Dicho as a filler spell in that document. We already have a spell that fills that role far more effectively - Chaotic Inferno. Ignoring its recourse it will do more DPS than Dichotomic Companion, and including its effects it is one of our strongest spells. This makes it a net loss to cast Dicho as your fifth spell instead of an additional Chaotic cast. The cast time difference doesn't come close to making up for that. With regards to raid lag, while it is inconsistent, that is not a justification for dismissing its significant impact on Dichotomic Companion. That my pet ranges from swinging at 1/5 to 2/3 of his normal swing rate does not negate the fact that he consistently swings far slower than his normal swing rate. There are discussions to be had about the best way to account for raid lag, but not accounting for it simply leads to inaccurate results. Similarly, if we're going to ask for upgrades to our class, let's not ignore its realities. Making Dicho proc for insane amounts of damage will make it usable, but it will make it do so much more damage in the group game that it will never be balanced. That's because of raid lag, regardless of whether or not we can quantify its exact effect. We will be worse off if we pursue the current design of Dicho than if we get it changed to benefit swarm pets or nukes.
Sancus, Just to be clear, you think having all 100 procs becoming forced to occur is game breaking? I think this is how it should of been from day 1. The fact this wasn’t done is a clear mistake/oversight. We’re talking about 3,539,300 damage from procs. This would make it just barely in line/behind the average of other classes. You think zerkers are the only ones doing big damage? Ever seen a ranger twin cast their Dicho? I have one and it can get up over 5 mil. Forcing the procs would only help balance in the group game... Xin PS: I also have a fundamental problem with your application of “min hit dmg modifiers”, but I’m on my iPhone at the gym and I have sets to rep out right now..
