EOTD will be the end of this game

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Lilura, Apr 11, 2018.

  1. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    You can have an opinion I guess but Daybreak should be making group content a challenge for group geared folk not raiders. And I don't recall saying "the lowest common denominator" neither the mathematical definition nor the urban usage is applicable here.

    And people do play with a modicum of ability but you don't want the challenge level to be set there. If you did that would be fine (in my opinion).

    And I have news for you. People have been playing this game for 19 years and overall the level of difficulty has been going down. There is a reason for this. Most players are no longer hard core, most players won't get up a 3 am to grab a raid name that has spawned etc etc.

    The EQ population as a whole is getting older and looking for a better life balance. Sure there are some that still make the game the center of their world and love sitting at the computer non stop for several hours at a time every day. Most aren't like that.

    Just my opinion though.
    Yinla likes this.
  2. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    Who said I was offended? Try looking through many of my posts on these forums. I sort of make a point of saying things are "just my opinion" A LOT.

    Raiders should not be the standard to which group content difficulty should be measured. (MY OPINION). Raiders who whine about Easy Buttons any time someone brings up tuning something down is foolish (MY OPINION).

    And anytime someone posts in this public forum about something I disagree with I will state MY OPINION. And feel free to quote something that actually supports what you are saying. If I feel I am being unreasonable I will apologize. I have done it in the past. I am not perfect and the possibility of mispeaking is always there.
  3. Brohg Augur

    I continue to object to your speaking on behalf of "most players" and "the EQ population as a whole". It's impossible hubris.

    You want the game to be easy. Specifically, you want it to be just easy enough for your gaggle of nooblings to be superficially on par with their harder playing opposite numbers in raiding guilds. That's actually fine, that you want that. What's not fine is attempting to claim that the perspectives of your peers are invalid, or trying to squeeze them out and shout them down by asserting an uncredentialed mandate
    Genoane and Nennius like this.
  4. Nolrog Augur

    Ah, the next great EQ killer. Dozens of them have come and gone, and EQ still persists.
  5. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    I am assuming this is a response to me since it follows my last post. It is MY OPINION that most players. Again I go on and on about how things are my opinion. But let's see. I have run the largest casual guild on xegony (though we started on TM server split to xev then merged to here) for 19 years. Trust me in that I get the casual game pretty well. Or don't trust me but IN MY OPINION I get the casual game well.

    None of us have hard data on this but IN MY OPINION the group geared folk still make up the majority of players although this may be slanting more towards raiders.

    And see this is more foolishness again IN MY OPINION. You say I want the game to be easy. I never said that. I said I want the group content to be designed to be a reasonable challenge to group gear folk. I say that and you say "I want the game to be easy" which is a big stretch.

    You know you seem to be the one incredibly offended. And yes my OPINION is that raiders should constantly whining about an EASY button any time someone thinks something should be tuned down. And you all tend to things to an extreme that is laughable. "gaggle of nooblings"? It is funny that you seem so easily offended yet you use phrases like that.

    I say
    I think group content should be tuned to players in group gear
    You say
    You just want it to eb easy enough for your gaggle of nooblings

    IN MY OPINION you are just looking foolish again. Oh and btw I do feel you have a right to express your opinion even though in MY OPINION it is foolish. :)
  6. Brohg Augur

    What you claim about your desires and your actual expressed desires are at odds.
  7. Triconix Augur

    There are other ways of making content more difficult without increasing the raw damage output of mobs through melee damage and the exorbitant amount of AEs thats mobs have these days.

    Most mechanics are becoming more simplistic. They are just killing hordes of mobs and living through AEs rather than actual mechanics and emotes. If you tie mechanics that need to be completed based on time increments and hp locks you'll prevent a lot of simple burn fights that raiders can accomplish that trivialize everything.

    Then again, we'll probably get casuals whining that they shouldn't have to be making audio triggers and follow directions. It's getting to a point where people are content with just /autoattack on and sitting there watching.
  8. Zhaunil_AB Augur

    Much the same as in every expansion, only with added impact due to the level increase:
    dots, adds, melee-silence-effects, snares on pulls in open areas and - at the start of the expansion - red mobs.
    That's why it's important to be precise what one's talking about imo.
    In my raid gear it was close at the beginning in the OT - group geared tanks (let alone the classes that were supposed to do the job) didn't survive longer pulls in the OT, so where we could operate from a more or less static camp, they'd have to move constantly or operate in a much reduced (even more i mean than "just" warranted by their lower tankability and DPS output) radius.
    And that's talking normal trash, the nameds were an entirely different matter.
    The math is simple, really:
    When i, in raid gear, was put down to somewhere between 5 and 10% (from initial ranged abilities only but granted, only self-mitigation abilities available), that would've meant insta-death (and did!) for the group geared tank. His gear is, after all, 17% "worse" than mine, for the same content.

    Since you are using "are" though in the above question, you are referring to the present - and i've got to give that RoS group gear helps a lot - of course, else the drops from group content (that for us goes directly to tribute or ALTs) could've been done without.
    The problem is just the "getting there" with anything but either a massive pp/krono investment (talk about "working poor" ) or anything else but optimal groups (which are not common for even us raiders in off-hours).
    The real problems groupers face go far beyond the immediate absolute numbers people are so fond of talking about and - if they recognize it or not - are shifting the focus by falsely quanitifying things that can't really boiled down to that.

    This is exactly what i talk about in this context.
    Yes i am reading this probably very differently than you intended it - and yes again, the possible meaning-changing cut of your quote at that point was intended by me.

    Of course a raider (me included, i am just as lazy as the rest of you) says "no thanks" to being hamstrung, especially if he has a choice - the grouper does not have that choice though, he's perma-hamstrung in comparison.
    No you wouldn't, not "just". You'd have sat there waiting for discs to refresh quite a bit because just running one and spacing it out as we can is (not always, but often) not an option - at the beginning, things're a bit different now after upgrades. And you'd have needed more time to get going in the first place because you needed more/other support than you did in raid gear. (that's what i meant with the reference to the guy who said he'd adjusted his gameplay: it affects the whole gaming experience)

    so again:
    To truly know what you talk about, to put yourself truly into the other's shoes, not from a comfortable/privileged position for a limited time, but sharing his experience.
    (and pls note: i am NOT talking "doable" here - that is not the question, i am simply talking about an entirely different experience in "getting there" )


    That is not the question?
    Of course everyone has his opinion, which by nature is based on his own situation.
    It's just that i feel some people have lost the "connection" to the rest of the game's population and cannot put themselves into their shoes anymore and so talk about "the same things" from a very different angle, in consequence often missing the point the other's trying to make because they never (or too long ago) experienced it in the first place and it's not part of "their world".

    Exactly.
    Why, then, do ppl insist of carrying over that advantage from that "very small percentage" into the rest of their gaming experience? The answer is simple ofc; because they can. Which were fine, if it wouldn't have the effects that it has (especially for an discussion).

    Yep they do.
    But what do "they" also do that you did NOT mention there?
    When they face something posing a bit "too much" of a challenge for their group-geared ALTs, they relog to their raiding mains or raid-geared ALTs. I've observed this regularly and if you are honest to yourself, so have you.
    People are using their raiding mains (naturally) to get to know the content, the pathing, the abilities and all that and THEN use that knowledge on their group geared ALTs, claiming "there is no problem".
    A grouper cannot relog to his raidgeared char to overcome an immediate obstacle - for him it's either wiping, get more support (often meaning more than a group being present and "active" too) or move elsewhere.
    The totally different experience (and perspective) that i'm talking about above.
    Corwyhn Lionheart likes this.
  9. Lianeb Augur

    You should see my post a few back where i talked about give numbers and proof and then making a completely differing argument cause the proof doesn't fit the agenda.

    So now that we know group gear is not as big of a difference as people think.
    Now we are going to argue that Group geared tanks are disadvantaged more at expansion launch than raid geared tanks.

    I guess I will hold on to the conflagrant set of gear to parse in the beginning of the next expansion to show you, it WILL be the SAME.
  10. Triconix Augur

    That question was completely and, I thought, obviously sarcastic and rhetorical. There should be nothing that a group geared tank has trouble with considering how I was able to tank regular mobs with my sham who is pretty much minimalist in terms of gear.
    I'm sorry but what "long pulls" are you almost dying to?" We have instant clickies with fairly long ranges, bows, throwing items that can all be used and we can outrun mobs, especially if you use furious leap. What difference would a pull make in group or raid gear? You shouldn't even be getting hit.

    What problems? Not giving enough effort, perhaps? Not fully understanding their class?

    This is exactly what i talk about in this context.
    Yes i am reading this probably very differently than you intended it - and yes again, the possible meaning-changing cut of your quote at that point was intended by me.

    Taking more time to complete stuff and needing slightly different tactics doesn't mean you're hamstrung. And like I said in another post, there are other things devs can implement to level the playing field. The fact they they concentrate on just raw damage output and hp totals of mobs will innately give raiders and advantage. It's not my problem that the devs don't implement different mechanics and allow my raid gear to give me an added benefit.

    No, I would juts rotate discs more. We have plenty to stack multiple at once within a 10 minute refresh of CS. Also, I wouldn't constantly be pulling swarms of mobs like I do now. So no, I would never have downtime, just like I don't have downtime now.
  11. segap Augur


    SoS is no different on a group geared rogue than a raid geared rogue. FD is no different on a group geared monk than a raid geared monk. Fading memories is no different on a group geared bard than a raid geared bard. Eye of zoom is no different for groupers than raiders. CotH is no different. At the onset of an expansion, even mez spells are the same (assuming mobs are higher level than the previous expansion's mez hard cap) until enchanters/bards start getting rk. III of which mez is likely the lower priority compared to buffs and dps. Nor are any of the other abilities one uses to probe and learn a zone. Everyone has access to eqresource and Good's excellent set of maps.

    As for switching in my raid geared main when things get tough... why would I do that? I'm playing the alts because I enjoy playing them. That includes any challenges that come up. If I just wanted to diddle daddle and not actually play them, I'd not play them. Besides, almost all group content is easy without the raid gear if you actually try to play.

    What I've seen you asking for is content that tuned so that people can afk frequently, that's tuned for people that have a hard time seeing, that's tuned for people that have slow reactions, etc. I get it, some of the population is getting old. I'm fine with a small part of the content being designed for the most casual of play. But in no way should the bulk of it cater to such.

    I'd also like to see a small portion of the content be something that requires one make a time commitment to. Not provide windows to afk, actually require people pay attention at all times and be ready for anything. To be something that keeps people engaged while playing. To occasionally require people to use oh-**** abilities that rarely ever get used. To push the limits of the various classes and to even require fringe spells/abilities that are normally considered not optimal to make a button for. It's not for everyone, but neither is sitting in a safe spot killing something every five minutes if I feel like it and am not running to the bathroom or answering the door.
  12. Jumbur Augur


    I must admit, thats what I like about raiding, the requirement for 100% focus, and the rush when you finally beat a challenging raid for the first time. :)

    Not really sure how to design something equivalent for groupers without alienating some of them though. Not many of the missions have the same replay-value as the raids, and people are only interested in beating the challenges the first time... Maybe increased coin-reward for each time you beat the challenges(again) or something. :confused:
  13. Brohg Augur

    I wish I could require that. sihhhhg :(
  14. Allayna Augur

    Be grateful EoTD 2 isn’t required for RoS.
  15. Lilura Augur

    Um, the Skyfire raid?
  16. Brohg Augur

    Um, EoTD *2*, not 1
  17. Quill Augur

    Lol.. I know you're trolloling him a bit here. But lets stop pretending that for sustained in group content across a lot of mobs, melee tanking(especially w/Bard) doesn't torch single-point range dps for damage like 10+ expansions. I'd regularly troll the casters with my parses just for funsies. Its not something that just started, its simply the functionality of it.

    There is simply a world of difference between someone who can swing all day doing damage against multiple attacking mobs(riposte and DS are fun) no less, and the guy that has to make sure his buttons always get pressed to do damage on a single mob and may need to get some mana back.

    Its like the difference between a marathon runner and a sprinter. If the race is 100 yards, the sprinter always wins(the caster could always win any particular mob). If the race is 10 miles, the marathon runner wins and will do far more overall damage, simply because they don't need rest and can be on the mob every single second of the fight.

    Either way, its not like this was really an issue in EQ other than to silk whose postier was in pain as they felt they should be tops in all damage ever. It also required a gripton of AA to enhance passive offensive melee.
  18. Yinla Augur

    I'll go a bit further with this.

    As long as those mechanics fit the mission/raid.

    Following move emotes, removing items, jumping out windows, clicking books to read it and passing it on, avoiding poisonous clouds all make sense and take nothing from emersion from the game, Stupid big red/green/orange circles we have with the last expansion does. Skyfire raid and mission is more like being in a disco than a fantasy game! (yes I'm showing my age there). Avoiding purple aura in vault makes sense, she is omitting a poisonous cloud, flashing circles around blades has what to do with a whirlwind?

    Balancing multiple mobs is fine, but reduce the damage output so they can all be tanked by 1 tank, they need to be balanced so why do we have NPCs beating hell out of mobs and making this mechanic harder? If it is felt there DPS is needed reduce the HP of the aggroing mobs.

    I'd prefer to see mobs HP locking for adds, than a DPS check, or X amount of adds spawning and then moving to the next stage. Many events are cheesed if you have huge DPS. I don't like seeing things get harder the longer it takes, if groups/raiders are a little slower but doing the event properly why should it matter if it takes them a bit more time? Exception to this would be timed events.
  19. p2aa Augur

    Once again, good casters DPS do more DPS than good tanks, in whatever content you want, group, raid etc (exception being necromancer on group mob because group mob don't have enough HP for necro dot to max DPS). Also, good tanks aren't doing 90 % DPS of good zerkers. Zerkers destroy tank DPS without problem.
  20. Cicelee Augur

    Honestly there is so much talk and debate over the years about raider vs grouper that we all have been wrong. The real discussion is what is considered playing EQ at an average level. What does that exactly entail, what are the expectations of an average player, etc.

    The job of the developers IMHO is to create content that is challenging, and achievable, for the average player. Which I believe for the most part they have been successful at.

    But here comes the rub. Highly skilled players are not challenged by this, and want harder content to appease their wishes. Poor, untalented, lazy players complain above mentioned content is way too hard for them, and want easier content to appease their wishes. Both sides believe they are right, and that is where debate comes in.

    Until we, as players, know exactly what an average player should be doing... we are always going to argue about content. To me, it is not an unrealistic expectation at 110 to obtain EOTD. Especially when you could obtain it at 105.

    So as I mentioned early in this thread, no EOTD is not going to end the game. It is the skill of players (or lack thereof) that will cause either side to retire and end the game. I do not see this happening for awhile, but would imagine at some point it will sunset...

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